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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Sept 8, 2014 7:10:27 GMT
I'll be honest, the only correct statement I read from Tiras is that def/mdef stats divides damage. Other than that, you're wrong about paladins building damage. I feel paladins should try building their damage. There is enough gear to mitigate for lack of mdef through intelligence, the biggest one being edel hood. My paladin can hit over 1.2k mdef at 60 int due to simple gear switches. 1.1k normal def. Close to 2k atk. It all just depends on gear you use. Also, I prefer dex because im not dependant on exelis up in order to spam guardian. I can use any armor to better boost my hp/def/mdef, and use an add like wolf ear or barbarotita to reach max speed guardian. Each build has its use, but tbh, int/vit is the most useless of the paladin builds and the most boring with the currently available gears. I don't get it. I thought I explained clearly as to how DEF and MDEF works via formula, and that it was enough to prove that it does not divide damage. What am I missing?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 7:11:41 GMT
I still believe VIT/INT/DEX is the true defensive tank build, A tank's role imo is to take damage and control aggro, not to damage. People consider them a true tank build because they can resist more damage than other paladin builds. If you want to consider switching gears that implies as well to VIT/INT/DEX that they can boost their DEF/MDEF even more than other builds, its why people consider them a the "tank" build. Of course you limit your guardian damage but who cares, imo pallys are not meant to be DPS, instead to stay fully as a tank role. imo if you really want damage that badly just make a dps class, not a paladin.
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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Sept 8, 2014 7:54:13 GMT
I still believe VIT/INT/DEX is the true defensive tank build, A tank's role imo is to take damage and control aggro, not to damage. People consider them a true tank build because they can resist more damage than other paladin builds. If you want to consider switching gears that implies as well to VIT/INT/DEX that they can boost their DEF/MDEF even more than other builds, its why people consider them a the "tank" build. Of course you limit your guardian damage but who cares, imo pallys are not meant to be DPS, instead to stay fully as a tank role. imo if you really want damage that badly just make a dps class, not a paladin. A tank's role imo is to take damage and control aggro - True. But, can you name a boss that cannot be tanked without INT? People consider them a true tank build because they can resist more damage than other paladin builds. - True. They can resist more magic damage, I already explained that via MDEF formula. I never denied it. But if you have evasion and DEF and MDEF (AGI/VIT/INT), isn't that better at damage reduction? People want better mitigation right? Of course, very low guardian but it doesn't matter. If you want to consider switching gears that implies as well to VIT/INT/DEX that they can boost their DEF/MDEF even more than other builds, its why people consider them a the "tank" build. - They can boost their MDEF significantly, because they have good base. DEF is not affected by INT. INT also doesn't affect physical resistance. imo pallys are not meant to be DPS. - True. Having good guardian is a preference, it is not a requirement. I can do 33k DPS at megas via 3 mobs so my party grinds level faster, but that is just my preference because I want to spend less time leveling. I want to grind bosses faster too. ---- Honestly, I notice that people take this post in the offensive, whereas, the point of this post is for Paladins to look at their defensive stats for what they really are. Not for some fantasy picture that 8k magic gets reduced to 8dmg. Even BIshops will have problems doing that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 15:53:11 GMT
I still believe VIT/INT/DEX is the true defensive tank build, A tank's role imo is to take damage and control aggro, not to damage. People consider them a true tank build because they can resist more damage than other paladin builds. If you want to consider switching gears that implies as well to VIT/INT/DEX that they can boost their DEF/MDEF even more than other builds, its why people consider them a the "tank" build. Of course you limit your guardian damage but who cares, imo pallys are not meant to be DPS, instead to stay fully as a tank role. imo if you really want damage that badly just make a dps class, not a paladin. A tank's role imo is to take damage and control aggro - True. But, can you name a boss that cannot be tanked without INT? People consider them a true tank build because they can resist more damage than other paladin builds. - True. They can resist more magic damage, I already explained that via MDEF formula. I never denied it. But if you have evasion and DEF and MDEF (AGI/VIT/INT), isn't that better at damage reduction? People want better mitigation right? Of course, very low guardian but it doesn't matter. If you want to consider switching gears that implies as well to VIT/INT/DEX that they can boost their DEF/MDEF even more than other builds, its why people consider them a the "tank" build. - They can boost their MDEF significantly, because they have good base. DEF is not affected by INT. INT also doesn't affect physical resistance. imo pallys are not meant to be DPS. - True. Having good guardian is a preference, it is not a requirement. I can do 33k DPS at megas via 3 mobs so my party grinds level faster, but that is just my preference because I want to spend less time leveling. I want to grind bosses faster too. ---- Honestly, I notice that people take this post in the offensive, whereas, the point of this post is for Paladins to look at their defensive stats for what they really are. Not for some fantasy picture that 8k magic gets reduced to 8dmg. Even BIshops will have problems doing that. A- Yes, you can't tank magic based bosses like almas or dunkelis without some mdef equip provider. Their magic will blow through your hp faster than you can say wtf. B- No, Agi has never provided damage reduction (i have seen no gear that provides def/mdef reduction with agi rise) and you're meant to take hits, so wanting to have evasion with damage reduction doesn't work imo, (although you will be able to have 4 stats sooner or later, so i'd use agi probably after capping the 3 main stats as VIT/INT/DEX) C- I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef if you wanted to (I.E. Edel Hood, Wound transfer, Ama no Habakiri etc). When I say that this is the most defensive tank build this is why they can make themselves resist damage better than any other paladin build. D- For faster killing, imo, relies on the dps of your party, not the paladin. But yes, thats just a preference, everyone has their own game style of playing. E- Who exactly do you mean by "people" that has taken this offensive? And yes that is unrealistic for 8k to 8dmg but you have to consider it would be somewhat close (This is what a paladin is for you know, reducing damage and taking damage). If you are really saying the point of this post is to look at the defensive stats of a paladin then look at the facts, VIT/INT/DEX provides the most resistance, yet you still will take damage at the end of the day.
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Post by Prayerz on Sept 8, 2014 15:53:32 GMT
I'll be honest, the only correct statement I read from Tiras is that def/mdef stats divides damage. Other than that, you're wrong about paladins building damage. I feel paladins should try building their damage. There is enough gear to mitigate for lack of mdef through intelligence, the biggest one being edel hood. My paladin can hit over 1.2k mdef at 60 int due to simple gear switches. 1.1k normal def. Close to 2k atk. It all just depends on gear you use. Also, I prefer dex because im not dependant on exelis up in order to spam guardian. I can use any armor to better boost my hp/def/mdef, and use an add like wolf ear or barbarotita to reach max speed guardian. Each build has its use, but tbh, int/vit is the most useless of the paladin builds and the most boring with the currently available gears. I don't get it. I thought I explained clearly as to how DEF and MDEF works via formula, and that it was enough to prove that it does not divide damage. What am I missing? I read the statement about armor after I wrote this Q.Q Yeah it's armor/gear defense that divides, not player defense, although gear defense is added into player defense in stats.
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Post by Prayerz on Sept 8, 2014 16:07:01 GMT
A tank's role imo is to take damage and control aggro - True. But, can you name a boss that cannot be tanked without INT? People consider them a true tank build because they can resist more damage than other paladin builds. - True. They can resist more magic damage, I already explained that via MDEF formula. I never denied it. But if you have evasion and DEF and MDEF (AGI/VIT/INT), isn't that better at damage reduction? People want better mitigation right? Of course, very low guardian but it doesn't matter. If you want to consider switching gears that implies as well to VIT/INT/DEX that they can boost their DEF/MDEF even more than other builds, its why people consider them a the "tank" build. - They can boost their MDEF significantly, because they have good base. DEF is not affected by INT. INT also doesn't affect physical resistance. imo pallys are not meant to be DPS. - True. Having good guardian is a preference, it is not a requirement. I can do 33k DPS at megas via 3 mobs so my party grinds level faster, but that is just my preference because I want to spend less time leveling. I want to grind bosses faster too. ---- Honestly, I notice that people take this post in the offensive, whereas, the point of this post is for Paladins to look at their defensive stats for what they really are. Not for some fantasy picture that 8k magic gets reduced to 8dmg. Even BIshops will have problems doing that. A- Yes, you can't tank magic based bosses like almas or dunkelis without some mdef equip provider. Their magic will blow through your hp faster than you can say wtf. B- No, Agi has never provided damage reduction (i have seen no gear that provides def/mdef reduction with agi rise) and you're meant to take hits, so wanting to have evasion with damage reduction doesn't work imo, (although you will be able to have 4 stats sooner or later, so i'd use agi probably after capping the 3 main stats as VIT/INT/DEX) C- I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef if you wanted to (I.E. Edel Hood, Wound transfer, Ama no Habakiri etc). When I say that this is the most defensive tank build this is why they can make themselves resist damage better than any other paladin build. D- For faster killing, imo, relies on the dps of your party, not the paladin. But yes, thats just a preference, everyone has their own game style of playing. E- Who exactly do you mean by "people" that has taken this offensive? And yes that is unrealistic for 8k to 8dmg but you have to consider it would be somewhat close (This is what a paladin is for you know, reducing damage and taking damage). If you are really saying the point of this post is to look at the defensive stats of a paladin then look at the facts, VIT/INT/DEX provides the most resistance, yet you still will take damage at the end of the day. A- Yes, you can't tank magic based bosses like almas or dunkelis without some mdef equip provider. Their magic will blow through your hp faster than you can say wtf.
I tank Almas and Dunkelis fine, and I use physical defensive gear like laminated mail and ideasol, along with wound transer, in these bosses, not mdef. I've even dropped almas xtal farming. I don't think I'd last long enough to get a rare if your statement was true, but clearly, you're wrong here. B- No, Agi has never provided damage reduction (i have seen no gear that provides def/mdef reduction with agi rise) and you're meant to take hits, so wanting to have evasion with damage reduction doesn't work imo, (although you will be able to have 4 stats sooner or later, so i'd use agi probably after capping the 3 main stats as VIT/INT/DEX)If you read back, you'd realise Agi is a damage reducer. You either take 0% damage or 100% damage. C- I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef if you wanted to (I.E. Edel Hood, Wound transfer, Ama no Habakiri etc). When I say that this is the most defensive tank build this is why they can make themselves resist damage better than any other paladin build.
Dex doesn't correlate with any gear that increases mdef. Edel Hood is mdef up by VIT, down by INT. Ama no Habikiri is mdef up by lvl. D- For faster killing, imo, relies on the dps of your party, not the paladin. But yes, thats just a preference, everyone has their own game style of playing. I feel everyone should take part in killing bosses faster. And with the introduction of ninjas being able to tank, and increase damage on a lot of bosses (even have had ninja tank almas), paladins should consider increasing their damage before becoming obsolete. E- Who exactly do you mean by "people" that has taken this offensive? And yes that is unrealistic for 8k to 8dmg but you have to consider it would be somewhat close (This is what a paladin is for you know, reducing damage and taking damage). If you are really saying the point of this post is to look at the defensive stats of a paladin then look at the facts, VIT/INT/DEX provides the most resistance, yet you still will take damage at the end of the day.I think it's already been said that yes, stat wise, VIT/INT provides the most resistance. Does that make the build the 'true' tank build? Nah. It just makes you the 'resistant' build. Nothing honestly too special about your build. You're a cookie cutter. Pre-molded. Nothing interesting. And every other build can still do what your build does, and more.
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Post by Prayerz on Sept 8, 2014 16:20:14 GMT
And if my statement about no int builds wasn't enough to prove you wrong about tanking bosses like almas, here.
He's max VIT/STR, the rest is dex. Int is 1. I don't see an issue with tanking Almas. Do you?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 16:57:10 GMT
A- Yes, you can't tank magic based bosses like almas or dunkelis without some mdef equip provider. Their magic will blow through your hp faster than you can say wtf. B- No, Agi has never provided damage reduction (i have seen no gear that provides def/mdef reduction with agi rise) and you're meant to take hits, so wanting to have evasion with damage reduction doesn't work imo, (although you will be able to have 4 stats sooner or later, so i'd use agi probably after capping the 3 main stats as VIT/INT/DEX) C- I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef if you wanted to (I.E. Edel Hood, Wound transfer, Ama no Habakiri etc). When I say that this is the most defensive tank build this is why they can make themselves resist damage better than any other paladin build. D- For faster killing, imo, relies on the dps of your party, not the paladin. But yes, thats just a preference, everyone has their own game style of playing. E- Who exactly do you mean by "people" that has taken this offensive? And yes that is unrealistic for 8k to 8dmg but you have to consider it would be somewhat close (This is what a paladin is for you know, reducing damage and taking damage). If you are really saying the point of this post is to look at the defensive stats of a paladin then look at the facts, VIT/INT/DEX provides the most resistance, yet you still will take damage at the end of the day. A- Yes, you can't tank magic based bosses like almas or dunkelis without some mdef equip provider. Their magic will blow through your hp faster than you can say wtf.
I tank Almas and Dunkelis fine, and I use physical defensive gear like laminated mail and ideasol, along with wound transer, in these bosses, not mdef. I've even dropped almas xtal farming. I don't think I'd last long enough to get a rare if your statement was true, but clearly, you're wrong here. B- No, Agi has never provided damage reduction (i have seen no gear that provides def/mdef reduction with agi rise) and you're meant to take hits, so wanting to have evasion with damage reduction doesn't work imo, (although you will be able to have 4 stats sooner or later, so i'd use agi probably after capping the 3 main stats as VIT/INT/DEX)If you read back, you'd realise Agi is a damage reducer. You either take 0% damage or 100% damage. C- I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef if you wanted to (I.E. Edel Hood, Wound transfer, Ama no Habakiri etc). When I say that this is the most defensive tank build this is why they can make themselves resist damage better than any other paladin build.
Dex doesn't correlate with any gear that increases mdef. Edel Hood is mdef up by VIT, down by INT. Ama no Habikiri is mdef up by lvl. D- For faster killing, imo, relies on the dps of your party, not the paladin. But yes, thats just a preference, everyone has their own game style of playing. I feel everyone should take part in killing bosses faster. And with the introduction of ninjas being able to tank, and increase damage on a lot of bosses (even have had ninja tank almas), paladins should consider increasing their damage before becoming obsolete. E- Who exactly do you mean by "people" that has taken this offensive? And yes that is unrealistic for 8k to 8dmg but you have to consider it would be somewhat close (This is what a paladin is for you know, reducing damage and taking damage). If you are really saying the point of this post is to look at the defensive stats of a paladin then look at the facts, VIT/INT/DEX provides the most resistance, yet you still will take damage at the end of the day.I think it's already been said that yes, stat wise, VIT/INT provides the most resistance. Does that make the build the 'true' tank build? Nah. It just makes you the 'resistant' build. Nothing honestly too special about your build. You're a cookie cutter. Pre-molded. Nothing interesting. And every other build can still do what your build does, and more. Thats where your wrong, avoiding hits isn't damage reduction at all, you just avoided the hit that does not reduce the hit to 0, if that was the case then I would acknowledge all classes with agi as a tanker. (having 0 damage only happens with clones as a ninja and stoneskin as an enchanter) I said DEX rises DEF on some gears not MDEF on some gears (if you look closely I said DEF) and the value of edel decreasing your mdef by int is false, i've tested it early on and my mdef still rised, so generally saying that you can still use Edel to increase your mdef even more. I stated again everyone has their own gamestyle of playing I never said its wrong to have damage, and thats your opinion. I stated here that you need to solely rely on the dps side of your team, not the paladin. Compared to me, my opinion is that a tank should keep hold of aggro nd take damage, and its my playstyle of a paladin, you have your own and thats cool. And i wouldn't say they are obsolete at all if they are 3-7k weaker damage compared to vit/dex/str paladins at all. Its just my understanding that a paladin (In practically every MMO) was never meant to be a damager, they are a Tank, the name knight says it all! Theres nothing special about VIT/DEX/STR either, you just do more guardian damage, I have more resistance to take damage from bosses/mobs, and I don't care whether you think vit/int/dex is nothing special, its your opinion and I have nothing against it at all. All I limit myself is the ability to do guardian damage as high as vit/dex/str + i cant use normal swords, that doesn't give other builds more variety than me, with VIT/INT/DEX i can use special and magic swords, you as a VIT/DEX/STR cannot use magic swords, but like i said BIG DEAL, its not the end of the world, you just provide yourself with a different variety of gear to choose from. In the end it really is up to you as the player to decide on what you want. But if you really want to consider a paladin something with a whole bunch of things to do (you can literally only do guardian n berserk, nothing else) then continue believing that, its your gamestyle and no one says you cant do that.
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Post by Krish (Retired Player) on Sept 8, 2014 17:15:22 GMT
Time to end this pointless argument.
There is no such thing as the "perfect" Tank Build, there are a variation of builds that you can use, maybe even experiment. Nobody is confused, they're all doing the right thing.
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Post by Prayerz on Sept 8, 2014 18:19:05 GMT
A- Yes, you can't tank magic based bosses like almas or dunkelis without some mdef equip provider. Their magic will blow through your hp faster than you can say wtf.
I tank Almas and Dunkelis fine, and I use physical defensive gear like laminated mail and ideasol, along with wound transer, in these bosses, not mdef. I've even dropped almas xtal farming. I don't think I'd last long enough to get a rare if your statement was true, but clearly, you're wrong here. B- No, Agi has never provided damage reduction (i have seen no gear that provides def/mdef reduction with agi rise) and you're meant to take hits, so wanting to have evasion with damage reduction doesn't work imo, (although you will be able to have 4 stats sooner or later, so i'd use agi probably after capping the 3 main stats as VIT/INT/DEX)If you read back, you'd realise Agi is a damage reducer. You either take 0% damage or 100% damage. C- I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef if you wanted to (I.E. Edel Hood, Wound transfer, Ama no Habakiri etc). When I say that this is the most defensive tank build this is why they can make themselves resist damage better than any other paladin build.
Dex doesn't correlate with any gear that increases mdef. Edel Hood is mdef up by VIT, down by INT. Ama no Habikiri is mdef up by lvl. D- For faster killing, imo, relies on the dps of your party, not the paladin. But yes, thats just a preference, everyone has their own game style of playing. I feel everyone should take part in killing bosses faster. And with the introduction of ninjas being able to tank, and increase damage on a lot of bosses (even have had ninja tank almas), paladins should consider increasing their damage before becoming obsolete. E- Who exactly do you mean by "people" that has taken this offensive? And yes that is unrealistic for 8k to 8dmg but you have to consider it would be somewhat close (This is what a paladin is for you know, reducing damage and taking damage). If you are really saying the point of this post is to look at the defensive stats of a paladin then look at the facts, VIT/INT/DEX provides the most resistance, yet you still will take damage at the end of the day.I think it's already been said that yes, stat wise, VIT/INT provides the most resistance. Does that make the build the 'true' tank build? Nah. It just makes you the 'resistant' build. Nothing honestly too special about your build. You're a cookie cutter. Pre-molded. Nothing interesting. And every other build can still do what your build does, and more. Thats where your wrong, avoiding hits isn't damage reduction at all, you just avoided the hit that does not reduce the hit to 0, if that was the case then I would acknowledge all classes with agi as a tanker. (having 0 damage only happens with clones as a ninja and stoneskin as an enchanter) I said DEX rises DEF on some gears not MDEF on some gears (if you look closely I said DEF) and the value of edel decreasing your mdef by int is false, i've tested it early on and my mdef still rised, so generally saying that you can still use Edel to increase your mdef even more. I stated again everyone has their own gamestyle of playing I never said its wrong to have damage, and thats your opinion. I stated here that you need to solely rely on the dps side of your team, not the paladin. Compared to me, my opinion is that a tank should keep hold of aggro nd take damage, and its my playstyle of a paladin, you have your own and thats cool. And i wouldn't say they are obsolete at all if they are 3-7k weaker damage compared to vit/dex/str paladins at all. Its just my understanding that a paladin (In practically every MMO) was never meant to be a damager, they are a Tank, the name knight says it all! Theres nothing special about VIT/DEX/STR either, you just do more guardian damage, I have more resistance to take damage from bosses/mobs, and I don't care whether you think vit/int/dex is nothing special, its your opinion and I have nothing against it at all. All I limit myself is the ability to do guardian damage as high as vit/dex/str + i cant use normal swords, that doesn't give other builds more variety than me, with VIT/INT/DEX i can use special and magic swords, you as a VIT/DEX/STR cannot use magic swords, but like i said BIG DEAL, its not the end of the world, you just provide yourself with a different variety of gear to choose from. In the end it really is up to you as the player to decide on what you want. But if you really want to consider a paladin something with a whole bunch of things to do (you can literally only do guardian n berserk, nothing else) then continue believing that, its your gamestyle and no one says you cant do that. I know for a fact it's easier to solo on my build vs yours as well. But that's besides the point. But pally doesn't need Int for magic resistance, seeing as we have skills like fortis to help with that. C- I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef if you wanted to (I.E. Edel Hood, Wound transfer, Ama no Habakiri etc). When I say that this is the most defensive tank build this is why they can make themselves resist damage better than any other paladin build. As I said, DEX doesn't raise mdef. Your statement stated otherwise. But you're right, it is player preference, but excuse me if I feel your cookie cutter isn't necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 18:33:41 GMT
Thats where your wrong, avoiding hits isn't damage reduction at all, you just avoided the hit that does not reduce the hit to 0, if that was the case then I would acknowledge all classes with agi as a tanker. (having 0 damage only happens with clones as a ninja and stoneskin as an enchanter) I said DEX rises DEF on some gears not MDEF on some gears (if you look closely I said DEF) and the value of edel decreasing your mdef by int is false, i've tested it early on and my mdef still rised, so generally saying that you can still use Edel to increase your mdef even more. I stated again everyone has their own gamestyle of playing I never said its wrong to have damage, and thats your opinion. I stated here that you need to solely rely on the dps side of your team, not the paladin. Compared to me, my opinion is that a tank should keep hold of aggro nd take damage, and its my playstyle of a paladin, you have your own and thats cool. And i wouldn't say they are obsolete at all if they are 3-7k weaker damage compared to vit/dex/str paladins at all. Its just my understanding that a paladin (In practically every MMO) was never meant to be a damager, they are a Tank, the name knight says it all! Theres nothing special about VIT/DEX/STR either, you just do more guardian damage, I have more resistance to take damage from bosses/mobs, and I don't care whether you think vit/int/dex is nothing special, its your opinion and I have nothing against it at all. All I limit myself is the ability to do guardian damage as high as vit/dex/str + i cant use normal swords, that doesn't give other builds more variety than me, with VIT/INT/DEX i can use special and magic swords, you as a VIT/DEX/STR cannot use magic swords, but like i said BIG DEAL, its not the end of the world, you just provide yourself with a different variety of gear to choose from. In the end it really is up to you as the player to decide on what you want. But if you really want to consider a paladin something with a whole bunch of things to do (you can literally only do guardian n berserk, nothing else) then continue believing that, its your gamestyle and no one says you cant do that. I know for a fact it's easier to solo on my build vs yours as well. But that's besides the point. But pally doesn't need Int for magic resistance, seeing as we have skills like fortis to help with that. C- I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef if you wanted to (I.E. Edel Hood, Wound transfer, Ama no Habakiri etc). When I say that this is the most defensive tank build this is why they can make themselves resist damage better than any other paladin build. As I said, DEX doesn't raise mdef. Your statement stated otherwise. But you're right, it is player preference, but excuse me if I feel your cookie cutter isn't necessary. I know for a fact it's easier to solo on my build vs yours as well. But that's besides the point. But pally doesn't need Int for magic resistance, seeing as we have skills like fortis to help with that.Fine, thats cool, I wasn't talking to you about soloing, I said tanking, I never said Solo in any of my posts so how is that relevant to the debate now? seems like we're going off the threads debate on who is the "Tank build". Let me ask you this, with more mdef and def I'm able to reduce more damage, whileas you, a vit/dex/str cannot reduce magic hits as much as me. My argument was talking about being a tank on the whole, the fact that your saying they "dont need" tells me its your preference and I said I have no issues with your opinion, I just think I'm better off as a defensive tank build. I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef And when I said you can rise DEX with both mdef and def I was implying you capped INT already. Sorry for the misinterpretation but thats what I meant. But you're right, it is player preference, but excuse me if I feel your cookie cutter isn't necessary.I'm just going to ignore this seeing as I don't see any relevance in how this was into our debate but Im going to stop debating over the simple fact of which is the "Tank build". I shared my opinion and I'm glad you dont like it, we all have our different preferences.
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Post by Prayerz on Sept 8, 2014 18:42:11 GMT
I know for a fact it's easier to solo on my build vs yours as well. But that's besides the point. But pally doesn't need Int for magic resistance, seeing as we have skills like fortis to help with that. C- I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef if you wanted to (I.E. Edel Hood, Wound transfer, Ama no Habakiri etc). When I say that this is the most defensive tank build this is why they can make themselves resist damage better than any other paladin build. As I said, DEX doesn't raise mdef. Your statement stated otherwise. But you're right, it is player preference, but excuse me if I feel your cookie cutter isn't necessary. I know for a fact it's easier to solo on my build vs yours as well. But that's besides the point. But pally doesn't need Int for magic resistance, seeing as we have skills like fortis to help with that.Fine, thats cool, I wasn't talking to you about soloing, I said tanking, I never said Solo in any of my posts so how is that relevant to the debate now? seems like we're going off the threads debate on who is the "Tank build". Let me ask you this, with more mdef and def I'm able to reduce more damage, whileas you, a vit/dex/str cannot reduce magic hits as much as me. My argument was talking about being a tank on the whole, the fact that your saying they "dont need" tells me its your preference and I said I have no issues with your opinion, I just think I'm better off as a defensive tank build. I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef And when I said you can rise DEX with both mdef and def I was implying you capped INT already. Sorry for the misinterpretation but thats what I meant. But you're right, it is player preference, but excuse me if I feel your cookie cutter isn't necessary.I'm just going to ignore this seeing as I don't see any relevance in how this was into our debate but Im going to stop debating over the simple fact of which is the "Tank build". I shared my opinion and I'm glad you dont like it, we all have our different preferences. But I can reduce as much as you can, both mdef and normal def. Like I said. WIth gear now, what's the point in your build? And you clearly said with DEX you can increase both def and mdef. Sorry, but your statement is misleading to others. Sorry if I hit a nerve, but I honestly don't care. I shared my opinion as well. As I said, I tank just as easily. I provide the same, if not, more to the party.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 18:51:00 GMT
I know for a fact it's easier to solo on my build vs yours as well. But that's besides the point. But pally doesn't need Int for magic resistance, seeing as we have skills like fortis to help with that.Fine, thats cool, I wasn't talking to you about soloing, I said tanking, I never said Solo in any of my posts so how is that relevant to the debate now? seems like we're going off the threads debate on who is the "Tank build". Let me ask you this, with more mdef and def I'm able to reduce more damage, whileas you, a vit/dex/str cannot reduce magic hits as much as me. My argument was talking about being a tank on the whole, the fact that your saying they "dont need" tells me its your preference and I said I have no issues with your opinion, I just think I'm better off as a defensive tank build. I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef And when I said you can rise DEX with both mdef and def I was implying you capped INT already. Sorry for the misinterpretation but thats what I meant. But you're right, it is player preference, but excuse me if I feel your cookie cutter isn't necessary.I'm just going to ignore this seeing as I don't see any relevance in how this was into our debate but Im going to stop debating over the simple fact of which is the "Tank build". I shared my opinion and I'm glad you dont like it, we all have our different preferences. But I can reduce as much as you can, both mdef and normal def. Like I said. WIth gear now, what's the point in your build? And you clearly said with DEX you can increase both def and mdef. Sorry, but your statement is misleading to others. Sorry if I hit a nerve, but I honestly don't care. I shared my opinion as well. As I said, I tank just as easily. I provide the same, if not, more to the party. I think it's already been said that yes, stat wise, VIT/INT provides the most resistance. Does that make the build the 'true' tank build? Nah. It just makes you the 'resistant' build. Nothing honestly too special about your build. You're a cookie cutter. Pre-molded. Nothing interesting. And every other build can still do what your build does, and more.
But I can reduce as much as you can, both mdef and normal def. Like I said. WIth gear now, what's the point in your build?
No you can't and you know that already, I can boost my stats w/o gears and with gears my stats would STILL be higher than you in terms of resistance Sorry for the misinterpretation but thats what I meant.Oh sorry, forgot you didn't see that. Sorry if I hit a nerve, but I honestly don't care. I shared my opinion as well. As I said, I tank just as easily. I provide the same, if not, more to the party.
And I can care less as well. I just stated my opinion on the matter, it didn't ask for you to care. Anyways i'm done with this thread, kind of wasting time to reply back to someone who isn't debating maturely about this.
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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Sept 9, 2014 1:48:15 GMT
A tank's role imo is to take damage and control aggro - True. But, can you name a boss that cannot be tanked without INT? People consider them a true tank build because they can resist more damage than other paladin builds. - True. They can resist more magic damage, I already explained that via MDEF formula. I never denied it. But if you have evasion and DEF and MDEF (AGI/VIT/INT), isn't that better at damage reduction? People want better mitigation right? Of course, very low guardian but it doesn't matter. If you want to consider switching gears that implies as well to VIT/INT/DEX that they can boost their DEF/MDEF even more than other builds, its why people consider them a the "tank" build. - They can boost their MDEF significantly, because they have good base. DEF is not affected by INT. INT also doesn't affect physical resistance. imo pallys are not meant to be DPS. - True. Having good guardian is a preference, it is not a requirement. I can do 33k DPS at megas via 3 mobs so my party grinds level faster, but that is just my preference because I want to spend less time leveling. I want to grind bosses faster too. ---- Honestly, I notice that people take this post in the offensive, whereas, the point of this post is for Paladins to look at their defensive stats for what they really are. Not for some fantasy picture that 8k magic gets reduced to 8dmg. Even BIshops will have problems doing that. A- Yes, you can't tank magic based bosses like almas or dunkelis without some mdef equip provider. Their magic will blow through your hp faster than you can say wtf. B- No, Agi has never provided damage reduction (i have seen no gear that provides def/mdef reduction with agi rise) and you're meant to take hits, so wanting to have evasion with damage reduction doesn't work imo, (although you will be able to have 4 stats sooner or later, so i'd use agi probably after capping the 3 main stats as VIT/INT/DEX) C- I was referring to DEX (it provides DEF with certain gears) and INT (provides MDEF) and with DEX you can increase both def and mdef if you wanted to (I.E. Edel Hood, Wound transfer, Ama no Habakiri etc). When I say that this is the most defensive tank build this is why they can make themselves resist damage better than any other paladin build. D- For faster killing, imo, relies on the dps of your party, not the paladin. But yes, thats just a preference, everyone has their own game style of playing. E- Who exactly do you mean by "people" that has taken this offensive? And yes that is unrealistic for 8k to 8dmg but you have to consider it would be somewhat close (This is what a paladin is for you know, reducing damage and taking damage). If you are really saying the point of this post is to look at the defensive stats of a paladin then look at the facts, VIT/INT/DEX provides the most resistance, yet you still will take damage at the end of the day. A. You give Dunkelis too much credit because I farm him with Jar+4xCurrones without any problems. I'm not the right guy to answer Almas because I don't farm him. Primarily because it requires me to drop Jar+Currones, which is illogical for me to do when the purpose of my grinding him is for the loot. B. AGI = Evasion = Miss = 0 damage. If a mob hits 3k physical, you evade it, you mitigated 3k damage. How is that not damage reduction? What's so hard to understand about it? C. What DEX gear are you referring to that raises DEF? I was to answer your examples (Edel Hood, etc.) but realized that Prayerz covered this. Again, Evasion + DEF + MDEF provides more mitigation than just DEF + MDEF. I don't even see why you argue with this. D. Agreed. Not everybody aims to grind faster. Some are casual players. E. I meant that people take it as an insult. I have shown the mathematics of the DEF and MDEF reduction but people refuse and say differently and come up with fancy stories about a Pally, which is primarily because they don't understand things properly. 12k magic damage with 2k MDEF drops it to 10k magic damage. It doesn't drop by % unless you wear % magic resistance gear, which everybody can wear. I'm telling people to look at it for what they really are, not for what people think they are. The formula is there for people to test and dispute it if they don't think it is correct, not by coming up with subjective stuffs or wild stories or hearsays or confused Q&A. I have done that with JP wiki's Guardian formula and have proven it false with tests, I didn't dispute it by just mere words with no numbers. Iruna damage figures runs by math, which means everything is quantifiable so it is pretty easy to tell that 1+1 =3 is false.
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Post by AnTz on Sept 9, 2014 5:48:21 GMT
lol.. why this thread bcome hot topic? XD Both builds.. vit int dex/ vit dex str has its own pros & cons. Which better is really depend on ur gameplay. Vit int dex provide more mdef n big mp pool to spam guardian, while vit dex str giv highest guardian dmg (higher dps). But BOTH can tank well. coz I ve tried both builds
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