|
Post by Prayerz on Sept 2, 2014 19:05:56 GMT
When it comes to abilities, its recommended not to waste spina on lots of same level gear because it doesnt stack as same lvl. One gets treated as the next level down. So if you have those 2 lvl 3 abis, one is really only at lvl 2 while both are equipped.
|
|
|
Post by Eyrie Malevoire on Sept 2, 2014 19:51:12 GMT
When it comes to abilities, its recommended not to waste spina on lots of same level gear because it doesnt stack as same lvl. One gets treated as the next level down. So if you have those 2 lvl 3 abis, one is really only at lvl 2 while both are equipped. Actually, it works, 2 same "ability" stacks. But if you had an equipment or xtal with the same effect as the ability, the "stacking" calculation will be different (it won't be just addition). Here's an example: I tried to reach once the -100% mp cost using these equipments but it failed: Moonlight S Rossam ★MP Cost lvl3 Exelis UP Ganei ★MP Cost lvl3 White Barette S Rossam ★MP Cost lvl3 Blue Ribbon NS ★MP Cost lvl4 (Weapon/Armor/Additional Gear/Accessory) Notes: Rossam -20% mp cost White Barette -10% mp cost ★MP Cost lvl1 -2% mp cost(per level) Moonlight Bow -25% mp cost Now, if you add all the mp cost consumption it would leave you at -101% mp cost. 51% - Weapon 6% - Armor 36% - Additional Gear 8% - Accessory = 101% Remember that Dance Of Clones base mp is "48". When I equipped that set, rather 1 mp, it leaves my Dance Of Clones with "6" mp. So if you do the math, rather -101%, it is just -87.5% overall. So, if someone can even explain how did it become -87.5% to me, it would be really helpful because I am trying to figure out this one SINCE SO PIE LONG, IT WRECKS MY BRAIN ALREADY.
|
|
|
Post by Eyrie Malevoire on Sept 2, 2014 20:07:07 GMT
PS: I don't know about other abilities but for mp cost, the proof is already here. Those are countless of experiments and so called "wasted spina" just to figure out how the game mechanics works here in Iruna, even in JP, you can't find it anywhere as detailed as what as I had stated.
|
|
|
Post by godofafro on Sept 3, 2014 1:33:42 GMT
When it comes to abilities, its recommended not to waste spina on lots of same level gear because it doesnt stack as same lvl. One gets treated as the next level down. So if you have those 2 lvl 3 abis, one is really only at lvl 2 while both are equipped. Actually, it works, 2 same "ability" stacks. But if you had an equipment or xtal with the same effect as the ability, the "stacking" calculation will be different (it won't be just addition). Here's an example: I tried to reach once the -100% mp cost using these equipments but it failed: Moonlight S Rossam ★MP Cost lvl3 Exelis UP Ganei ★MP Cost lvl3 White Barette S Rossam ★MP Cost lvl3 Blue Ribbon NS ★MP Cost lvl4 (Weapon/Armor/Additional Gear/Accessory) Notes: Rossam -20% mp cost White Barette -10% mp cost ★MP Cost lvl1 -2% mp cost(per level) Moonlight Bow -25% mp cost Now, if you add all the mp cost consumption it would leave you at -101% mp cost. 51% - Weapon 6% - Armor 36% - Additional Gear 8% - Accessory = 101% Remember that Dance Of Clones base mp is "48". When I equipped that set, rather 1 mp, it leaves my Dance Of Clones with "6" mp. So if you do the math, rather -101%, it is just -87.5% overall. So, if someone can even explain how did it become -87.5% to me, it would be really helpful because I am trying to figure out this one SINCE SO PIE LONG, IT WRECKS MY BRAIN ALREADY. I did a rough calculation of your equips -mp cost without counting in the mp cost abilities, just the equip effect as well as crystas moonlight+ rossam = 25+20: 45% white barette + rossam = 10+25: 35% together, these combined gives -80% mp cost.So far nothing wrong here. Now for your abilites. Three level 3* star and One level 4* star mp cost. Together combined gives supposedly -26% mp cost. However, you stated that it only gives the effect of -7.5% more, which can only theorizes one thing. Prayerz statement of abilities effect dropping per same effect stacking may come into effect here, as your mp cost overall effectiveness dropped by 28%. Few ways you can try to improve your star abilities effect: (1) raise your L4 to a L5, (2) raise your L3 to L4, and then check if there is any subtle differences.
|
|
|
Post by MiLiGRiTo on Sept 3, 2014 2:14:05 GMT
Actually, it works, 2 same "ability" stacks. But if you had an equipment or xtal with the same effect as the ability, the "stacking" calculation will be different (it won't be just addition). Here's an example: I tried to reach once the -100% mp cost using these equipments but it failed: Moonlight S Rossam ★MP Cost lvl3 Exelis UP Ganei ★MP Cost lvl3 White Barette S Rossam ★MP Cost lvl3 Blue Ribbon NS ★MP Cost lvl4 (Weapon/Armor/Additional Gear/Accessory) Notes: Rossam -20% mp cost White Barette -10% mp cost ★MP Cost lvl1 -2% mp cost(per level) Moonlight Bow -25% mp cost Now, if you add all the mp cost consumption it would leave you at -101% mp cost. 51% - Weapon 6% - Armor 36% - Additional Gear 8% - Accessory = 101% Remember that Dance Of Clones base mp is "48". When I equipped that set, rather 1 mp, it leaves my Dance Of Clones with "6" mp. So if you do the math, rather -101%, it is just -87.5% overall. So, if someone can even explain how did it become -87.5% to me, it would be really helpful because I am trying to figure out this one SINCE SO PIE LONG, IT WRECKS MY BRAIN ALREADY. I did a rough calculation of your equips -mp cost without counting in the mp cost abilities, just the equip effect as well as crystas moonlight+ rossam = 25+20: 45% white barette + rossam = 10+25: 35% together, these combined gives -80% mp cost.So far nothing wrong here. Now for your abilites. Three level 3* star and One level 4* star mp cost. Together combined gives supposedly -26% mp cost. However, you stated that it only gives the effect of -7.5% more, which can only theorizes one thing. Prayerz statement of abilities effect dropping per same effect stacking may come into effect here, as your mp cost overall effectiveness dropped by 28%. Few ways you can try to improve your star abilities effect: (1) raise your L4 to a L5, (2) raise your L3 to L4, and then check if there is any subtle differences. or try to equip/unequip/transfer the abilities that you have and measure the effect.
|
|
|
Post by Eyrie Malevoire on Sept 3, 2014 6:52:43 GMT
As I said, and pointing out, Prayerz statement is wrong. Seriously, you should try it yourselves and see for yourself before giving any statement. For the problem, I had already resolve it you should examine this one also, if you please.
Again, using this equipment gave me a -87.5% total of mp cost.
Set A
Moonlight S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Exelis UP S Ganei ★MPCost 3 White Barette S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Blue Ribbon ★MPCost 4
MP Cost when added: -101% Actual MP Cost reduction: -87.5%
Now, I tried another using my theory that Ability is calculated last and Equipment as first. I just changed White Barette (-10%) to Gluck (-20%).
Set B
Moonlight S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Exelis UP Ganei ★MPCost 3 Gluck S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Blue Ribbon ★MPCost 4
MP Cost when added: -111% Actual MP Cost reduction: -100%(or even more, already achieved 1mp on all my skills, even earthshaker and bunshin).
So let's examine it. Why does Set A gave me a total of -87.5% when it should be -101%? Why on Set B, I achieved that "1mp per skill" when I just changed the White Barette with Gluck? If we follow the calculation on Set A, shouldn't be the Set B have just -97.5% because we just change White Barette(-10%) to Gluck(-20%)? Or the calculation already becomes different the moment we changed the equipment with another one? On my theory, the calculation goes by this:
Equipment>Xtal>Ability
Still, I'm still trying to figure out if I should use more complicated just to solve this one. And also, 2 same ability stacks, even 3 or 4, if you have one on special equipment, make it 5. That's it.
|
|
|
Post by godofafro on Sept 3, 2014 7:55:15 GMT
As I said, and pointing out, Prayerz statement is wrong. Seriously, you should try it yourselves and see for yourself before giving any statement. For the problem, I had already resolve it you should examine this one also, if you please. Again, using this equipment gave me a -87.5% total of mp cost. Set A Moonlight S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Exelis UP S Ganei ★MPCost 3 White Barette S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Blue Ribbon ★MPCost 4 MP Cost when added: -101% Actual MP Cost reduction: -87.5% Now, I tried another using my theory that Ability is calculated last and Equipment as first. I just changed White Barette (-10%) to Gluck (-20%). Set B Moonlight S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Exelis UP Ganei ★MPCost 3 Gluck S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Blue Ribbon ★MPCost 4 MP Cost when added: -111% Actual MP Cost reduction: -100%(or even more, already achieved 1mp on all my skills, even earthshaker and bunshin). So let's examine it. Why does Set A gave me a total of -87.5% when it should be -101%? Why on Set B, I achieved that "1mp per skill" when I just changed the White Barette with Gluck? If we follow the calculation on Set A, shouldn't be the Set B have just -97.5% because we just change White Barette(-10%) to Gluck(-20%)? Or the calculation already becomes different the moment we changed the equipment with another one? On my theory, the calculation goes by this: Equipment>Xtal>Ability Still, I'm still trying to figure out if I should use more complicated just to solve this one. And also, 2 same ability stacks, even 3 or 4, if you have one on special equipment, make it 5. That's it. Your misunderstanding what prayerz is trying to convey: As for me, I have personally tested several of the same levels of abilities unto all equips that i can concurrently wear, no one here implies that the mp cost of same level will be erased off from multiple usage of it, but rather the effects of it will drop compared to a full fledged level of what it supposedly does. Many of us here can testify for that. The question should be, exactly how much does it reduces by, if wear abilities of the same level.
|
|
|
Post by Eyrie Malevoire on Sept 3, 2014 12:21:56 GMT
Actually, it works, 2 same "ability" stacks. But if you had an equipment or xtal with the same effect as the ability, the "stacking" calculation will be different (it won't be just addition). Here's an example: I tried to reach once the -100% mp cost using these equipments but it failed: Moonlight S Rossam ★MP Cost lvl3 Exelis UP Ganei ★MP Cost lvl3 White Barette S Rossam ★MP Cost lvl3 Blue Ribbon NS ★MP Cost lvl4 (Weapon/Armor/Additional Gear/Accessory) Notes: Rossam -20% mp cost White Barette -10% mp cost ★MP Cost lvl1 -2% mp cost(per level) Moonlight Bow -25% mp cost Now, if you add all the mp cost consumption it would leave you at -101% mp cost. 51% - Weapon 6% - Armor 36% - Additional Gear 8% - Accessory = 101% Remember that Dance Of Clones base mp is "48". When I equipped that set, rather 1 mp, it leaves my Dance Of Clones with "6" mp. So if you do the math, rather -101%, it is just -87.5% overall. So, if someone can even explain how did it become -87.5% to me, it would be really helpful because I am trying to figure out this one SINCE SO PIE LONG, IT WRECKS MY BRAIN ALREADY. I did a rough calculation of your equips -mp cost without counting in the mp cost abilities, just the equip effect as well as crystas moonlight+ rossam = 25+20: 45% white barette + rossam = 10+25: 35% together, these combined gives -80% mp cost.So far nothing wrong here. Now for your abilites. Three level 3* star and One level 4* star mp cost. Together combined gives supposedly -26% mp cost. However, you stated that it only gives the effect of -7.5% more, which can only theorizes one thing. Prayerz statement of abilities effect dropping per same effect stacking may come into effect here, as your mp cost overall effectiveness dropped by 28%. Few ways you can try to improve your star abilities effect: (1) raise your L4 to a L5, (2) raise your L3 to L4, and then check if there is any subtle differences. Your calculation already failed here, White Barette + Rossam is 30% not 35%. And also, seriously, I already tried doing that, TONS OF TIME, that's why I'm able to see the loophole within this game's mechanics which I think only few people really knows and pay attention to. And I said, abilities do stack, they ARE, I tried doing it with just abilities and gave me the right result. But the moment I tried to increase it further by getting the same equipment and xtal that has the effect, it suddenly becomes sooooooo confusing which change the overall result in the process. If you can just explain to me how did my "Set A" get the -87.5% decrease than the -101% using your theory that abilities doesn't stack, I would be really happy. Remember that my Dance of Clones, becomes 48 -> 6 and my Bunshin becomes 128 -> 16, that's the proof that its really just -87.5%.
|
|
|
Post by Eyrie Malevoire on Sept 3, 2014 12:48:10 GMT
As I said, and pointing out, Prayerz statement is wrong. Seriously, you should try it yourselves and see for yourself before giving any statement. For the problem, I had already resolve it you should examine this one also, if you please. Again, using this equipment gave me a -87.5% total of mp cost. Set A Moonlight S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Exelis UP S Ganei ★MPCost 3 White Barette S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Blue Ribbon ★MPCost 4 MP Cost when added: -101% Actual MP Cost reduction: -87.5% Now, I tried another using my theory that Ability is calculated last and Equipment as first. I just changed White Barette (-10%) to Gluck (-20%). Set B Moonlight S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Exelis UP Ganei ★MPCost 3 Gluck S Rossam ★MPCost 3 Blue Ribbon ★MPCost 4 MP Cost when added: -111% Actual MP Cost reduction: -100%(or even more, already achieved 1mp on all my skills, even earthshaker and bunshin). So let's examine it. Why does Set A gave me a total of -87.5% when it should be -101%? Why on Set B, I achieved that "1mp per skill" when I just changed the White Barette with Gluck? If we follow the calculation on Set A, shouldn't be the Set B have just -97.5% because we just change White Barette(-10%) to Gluck(-20%)? Or the calculation already becomes different the moment we changed the equipment with another one? On my theory, the calculation goes by this: Equipment>Xtal>Ability Still, I'm still trying to figure out if I should use more complicated just to solve this one. And also, 2 same ability stacks, even 3 or 4, if you have one on special equipment, make it 5. That's it. Your misunderstanding what prayerz is trying to convey: As for me, I have personally tested several of the same levels of abilities unto all equips that i can concurrently wear, no one here implies that the mp cost of same level will be erased off from multiple usage of it, but rather the effects of it will drop compared to a full fledged level of what it supposedly does. Many of us here can testify for that. The question should be, exactly how much does it reduces by, if wear abilities of the same level. On your last sentence here, the fail wikipedia has an answer. Roughly, if you have equipments with same ability level, it will count the other one as one level lower, meaning if you have 2 level 4's, it will be counted as a level 3 and a level 4, which if we apply on my Set A, the 3/3/3/4(bow/armor/weapon/accessory) will and should become 1/2/3/4 instead, which is, still wrong, thank you based fail wiki. Now let's just ignore everything and just focus on this one question: Where dahell did ".5" in the -87.5 comes from? If fail wiki said it should be count as a lower level, then the 3/3/3/4(-26%) will become 1/2/3/4(-20%) instead. There is no items/xtal/ability that has "0.5" on any of what I am using.
|
|
|
Post by Prayerz on Sept 3, 2014 15:50:27 GMT
Your misunderstanding what prayerz is trying to convey: As for me, I have personally tested several of the same levels of abilities unto all equips that i can concurrently wear, no one here implies that the mp cost of same level will be erased off from multiple usage of it, but rather the effects of it will drop compared to a full fledged level of what it supposedly does. Many of us here can testify for that. The question should be, exactly how much does it reduces by, if wear abilities of the same level. On your last sentence here, the fail wikipedia has an answer. Roughly, if you have equipments with same ability level, it will count the other one as one level lower, meaning if you have 2 level 4's, it will be counted as a level 3 and a level 4, which if we apply on my Set A, the 3/3/3/4(bow/armor/weapon/accessory) will and should become 1/2/3/4 instead, which is, still wrong, thank you based fail wiki. Now let's just ignore everything and just focus on this one question: Where dahell did ".5" in the -87.5 comes from? If fail wiki said it should be count as a lower level, then the 3/3/3/4(-26%) will become 1/2/3/4(-20%) instead. There is no items/xtal/ability that has "0.5" on any of what I am using. You just said the same thing we said to you.... Are you really this naive? Go back and read what he and I both said to you.
|
|
badeko
Member
down w the army of darkness!!
|
Post by badeko on Sept 3, 2014 17:53:31 GMT
So using abilities of the same lvl and type will lower one of them by one lvl (or .5 of a lvl?, or some other variant of that)?? .. I always thought they stackd normally like two lv1 eva would work as a lv 2 eva would..
|
|
|
Post by Prayerz on Sept 4, 2014 1:11:06 GMT
So using abilities of the same lvl and type will lower one of them by one lvl (or .5 of a lvl?, or some other variant of that)?? .. I always thought they stackd normally like two lv1 eva would work as a lv 2 eva would.. ☆ avoid Effect Lv1: AVD + 10 Lv2: AVD + 15 Lv3: AVD + 20 Lv4: AVD + 25 Lv5: AVD + 30 This is EVA (Using it for example). Let's say you're using 5 lvl 1 evas. Those, since being the lowest level will stack, and make 50 total added eva. Now, let's use 5 lvl 5 evas. What you're exepecting: 30x5 or 150 added eva. What you will get: 30+25+20+15+10 or 100 added eva. Why? Because these are upper level abilities, thus meaning that when attempting to stack the effects of each, they will level down to the next available level (only for same ability). Level 5 | Evasion 5 ✓ | Level 4 | Evasion 5 ↓ (4) | Level 3 | Evasion 5 ↓ (3) | Level 2 | Evasion 5 ↓ (2) | Level 1 | Evasion 5 ↓ (1) |
Represented in the table is the process I have explained. The right side shows the ability level slot, and the right side shows the ability level used. Within the parenthesis shows what the ability level is degraded to or acting as. Here we see at level 5, the ability is unaffected, but as you add more, the abilities decrease in level.
Note that this only applies to same ability types (i.e. Eva+Eva). This why i called it wasteful to blow spina on 5 level 5 of the same ability to use on one character. It will only get treated as the next lower level available as you add more.
|
|
|
Post by MiLiGRiTo on Sept 4, 2014 5:38:21 GMT
On your last sentence here, the fail wikipedia has an answer. Roughly, if you have equipments with same ability level, it will count the other one as one level lower, meaning if you have 2 level 4's, it will be counted as a level 3 and a level 4, which if we apply on my Set A, the 3/3/3/4(bow/armor/weapon/accessory) will and should become 1/2/3/4 instead, which is, still wrong, thank you based fail wiki. Now let's just ignore everything and just focus on this one question: Where dahell did ".5" in the -87.5 comes from? If fail wiki said it should be count as a lower level, then the 3/3/3/4(-26%) will become 1/2/3/4(-20%) instead. There is no items/xtal/ability that has "0.5" on any of what I am using. You need to consider that Iruna rounds numbers. Whether it rounds up and rounds down or whether it rounds up only, I'm not sure. For example, if the reduction is 88% and iruna only rounds up, then you might end up with 128 x 0.12 = 15.36 (round up to 16), 48 x 0.12 = 5.76 (round up to 6). If I follow Prayer's chart, the math still ends up wrong, so if your constants are true, then the abilities' behavior is wrong (as you suspect it is). What I have confirmed is 2 x Lv1 same abilities can stack as described by Prayers. Multiple Lv1's I have not tested. If you can provide me with more data, I can try to crack this for you. Give me more examples of which mp gets reduced to how much with what gear equipped.
|
|
|
Post by Eyrie Malevoire on Sept 4, 2014 12:48:40 GMT
On your last sentence here, the fail wikipedia has an answer. Roughly, if you have equipments with same ability level, it will count the other one as one level lower, meaning if you have 2 level 4's, it will be counted as a level 3 and a level 4, which if we apply on my Set A, the 3/3/3/4(bow/armor/weapon/accessory) will and should become 1/2/3/4 instead, which is, still wrong, thank you based fail wiki. Now let's just ignore everything and just focus on this one question: Where dahell did ".5" in the -87.5 comes from? If fail wiki said it should be count as a lower level, then the 3/3/3/4(-26%) will become 1/2/3/4(-20%) instead. There is no items/xtal/ability that has "0.5" on any of what I am using. You need to consider that Iruna rounds numbers. Whether it rounds up and rounds down or whether it rounds up only, I'm not sure. For example, if the reduction is 88% and iruna only rounds up, then you might end up with 128 x 0.12 = 15.36 (round up to 16), 48 x 0.12 = 5.76 (round up to 6). If I follow Prayer's chart, the math still ends up wrong, so if your constants are true, then the abilities' behavior is wrong (as you suspect it is). What I have confirmed is 2 x Lv1 same abilities can stack as described by Prayers. Multiple Lv1's I have not tested. If you can provide me with more data, I can try to crack this for you. Give me more examples of which mp gets reduced to how much with what gear equipped. Btw, Iruna doesn't take rounded numbers, if it ends with like 15.99, it will still take "15" which pretty much sucks. I tried doing something like (total equip + total xtal) then using the total % of the ability, hard to explain lol, just gonna make an example: (35,"moonlight and w.barette"+ 40, "2 rossams) = 75 then using total % of ability with is 26%, I tried getting the 26% of 75 which is 19.5 and added to 75 which made it 94.5 and far from the target 87.5. This one is really hard to crack like seriously. Iruna developers should have at least gave us an information regarding their PIE game and not just milk their customers by releasing PIE costumes. I'll test something later and see if I can give you more data regarding this one.
|
|
|
Post by sugarbiscuits on Sept 4, 2014 20:14:54 GMT
Bump That moment you start a thread and alotta people post on it
|
|