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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 6:21:40 GMT
Youre all actually arguing on four seperate points. 1) a max int aspd 120+ max dex enchanter and with current cap of lvl 220 and with new star ability using a dia espada will out damage a cane user on both whote and autoskill damage (bear with me on this i will explain why below) 2) you argue mdef with origin boost vs stacking matk to penetrate. This resolves to a dia espada user selightly edging an amulet or cane user out. (See again below) 3) you argue proc from gear vs base proc. This doesn't work. Again i will explain below. 4) you argue dia espadas 10% neutral bonus to mana wave which affects ciel dmg vs resty rods spell boost proc. Again. Its applying to what i will say following this, which is why so many enchanters say witch knife while looking good, absolutely sucks, and i would actually say if you want to go throwing, flabellum 2 is better. The reasoning why your cane setup looks so awesome on paper is because magic users get a tiny bonus using a staff to matk vs not using a staff A magic sword user gets 2 atk and 1.5 atk per dex and a further 1.5 atk and matak from using a magic swordvbAdd em. If we take this at hase value. I am getting 2x 256 white damage from dia espada. This applies to its 10% neutral boost from its inherient mana wave. Next i get for every point i add to dex 1.5 from using a magic sword plus 1.5 for the fact that dex adds an inherient 1.5 matk. This translates to 3 more matk, actually it sits around 4.5 due to % buff and debuff. The effect doesnt matter. The only reason resty and dragon are matching and if by a very very small margain and we are talking kkda up vs fclaw up kinda margain. Where it wouldnt freaking matter is the weapon @atk value. And this will be surpassed when dia maxes out on its next upgrade. Trying to compare dia vs resty dia vs amulet dia vs dragon is absolutely pointless. Using dia you will proc a higher dmg mana wave which leaves us still bursty. Using a resty you will proc your skills less often and for a bit more damage. Using an amulet+ you wont even match that. We dont care about white damage. And the amount of points you have to spend to max your aspd uskng a staff will only ever on par you if youre extremly lucky with autoskill vs what a dia or a flab+2 can offer at the sacrafice of Survivability. And no. Any enchanter worth their salt doesn't spam ss to tank. Noobs do that. Its an ohshi button. Not a staple Stop theorizing tilt and do it in game. An app emchant is about as useful as an app monk. They dont compare to full classes. Get one and you will see. Editing some spelling mistakes and clarifying: Cane (3 atk str 1atk int. Magic users geta small boost) a can is classified as a staff. Magic sword (2 atk per int (offsets cane bonus to dmg since thats what we are talking about) 1.5 per dex. Do some math now. Every point of dex we add gives 1.5 matk. Using a magic sword we get a further 1.5. Thats 3 no? 1.5 +1.5 is 3 unless my math is wrong. You are only out damaging because you are outgearing. Its like a new sniper not using a thimble vs one using one. WE DONT CARE ABOUT WHITE HITS. Thats a bonus. Nkthing more. And a if u arnt proccing an auto skill, and you will proc less times and for less overall damage against a long boss, say earth god. You are gimping yourself on a real fight. 30 secboss fights dont count while that sounds good and all, your forgetting 4 important things 1) The amount of matk with a staff and magic amp when matk xtals are added 2) Both are built differently, so you contradict yourself with your entire list. 3) magic sword does Not give an additional 1.5 matk when it is equipped. Math isnt needed, but that alone cripples your claim of a magic sword having even or more matk than a staff user. 4) the damage added by increasing the INT stat is not what gets added to MATK, its the normal base that does. The key to a staff/magic staff enchanter is magic amplifier, and the strategy behind it is a magic overhaul. as an exaggerated example, a staff may give up a hit or 2 of auto skills, but the power of the autoskills used should be enough to carry the attack. 5 10k damage auto skills, 4 15k damage autoskills And about the "Tilt stop theorizing" Comment; im not just going to think of a random whatever and post and argue about whatever with no experience at all. Of course i know that paper math and results dont translate ingame. Thats what a test is for. and another thing about the dia's proc rate vs the autoskill boost from an amulet; amulet increases the autotskil % of all the other autoskills, making them all cast more, and because an amulet can use a magic amp in addition to whatever matk increasing xtals the autoskills will deal more damage and strike more often. dia has its own proc and no autoskill+%. the matk is already lower than a canes matk the damage wont be as high. The result is lower damage per autoskill cast and a lower chance of them casting overall compared to amulet. INT, AGI, and DEX(If crt isnt your option) are all needed for an enchanter and all 3 of those stats help boost the matk of a cane. only 2 of those help fofr magic sword. And if you really want to get in deep, remember the hidden stats that you get on job changes also help. Expect a full math workout/whatever in a few hours along with an ingame test.
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Post by ManaKhe on Apr 19, 2014 6:42:22 GMT
Just a note on your comment about how Dia Espada will have lower damage and a lower chance of casting overall. No actually, because you will be using magic amp instead of lotus seeds/reduce bangle. Lotus Seeds has the same amount of autoskill chance as Amulet+ so it will be the same rate, but Dia Espada will have 3 autoskills instead of 2. Also the difference in damage between those two specifically won't be as great as with other canes since Amulet+ has a lot lower ATK. Amulet+ will still do more damage per cast though. Reduce bangle also results in more autoskills being cast overall over lotus seeds too(not counting reduce bangles autoskill as an autoskill cast lol).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 7:16:19 GMT
i dont want to start another war so this is my final argument. experiment with things before giving theories. don't be lazy & type like a pro like some. lets just eliminate wiki from our head and get to the real thing. if cane is totally useless, i wouldn't bother trying to count it as potential weapon and swing a cane toward mobs either.
get an amulet, hold your rant till the 3rd amulet upgrade comes which is just around the corner.
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aroxis
Member
I liek cupcakes .-.
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Post by aroxis on Apr 20, 2014 19:33:29 GMT
Just a note on your comment about how Dia Espada will have lower damage and a lower chance of casting overall. No actually, because you will be using magic amp instead of lotus seeds/reduce bangle. Lotus Seeds has the same amount of autoskill chance as Amulet+ so it will be the same rate, but Dia Espada will have 3 autoskills instead of 2. Also the difference in damage between those two specifically won't be as great as with other canes since Amulet+ has a lot lower ATK. Amulet+ will still do more damage per cast though. Reduce bangle also results in more autoskills being cast overall over lotus seeds too(not counting reduce bangles autoskill as an autoskill cast lol). Dia has 3 autoskills? IDK WHATS GOING ON HERE!!! @.@
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 5:44:09 GMT
actually, due to max aspd, some additional damage don't belong to that particular hit. e.g my crit additional dont stack with enchant. never tested ciel yet. in a long fight, it seems like stacking because enchant weapon damage belong to the previous hit.
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Post by ManaKhe on Apr 21, 2014 19:19:02 GMT
I never used Headband to be honest but Ciel was an enormous boost in damage for me. It also makes more sense that it would be better. I'm sure I'll try it when I get a drop from Degizman as I am farming for an Autoskilll star(that crap is evil). At the moment though I'm doing like 3+ autoskills per second though lol. Headband will be more stable damage though, but probably lower overall. I used a Booster+Lotus Seeds setup before Ciel came out and Ciel was a huge upgrade over that and that is basically the same as Headband+Reduce.
The Dia Espada setup I use has 3 Autoskills. Dia Espada(Mana wave), Ciel(Mana Wave), DPR UP, Reduce bangle/Lotus seeds and Enchant weapon too. I don't count the counterattack from DPR or reduce bangles autoskill. I'm only counting the magic attack autoskills.
Yeah if I posted a screenie of my damage it would be confusing since there would be a bunch of "the effect has been renewed" things all over the place from Reduce Bangle and too many numbers outside of that lol.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 2:38:02 GMT
I never used Headband to be honest but Ciel was an enormous boost in damage for me. It also makes more sense that it would be better. I'm sure I'll try it when I get a drop from Degizman as I am farming for an Autoskilll star(that crap is evil). At the moment though I'm doing like 3+ autoskills per second though lol. Headband will be more stable damage though, but probably lower overall. I used a Booster+Lotus Seeds setup before Ciel came out and Ciel was a huge upgrade over that and that is basically the same as Headband+Reduce. The Dia Espada setup I use has 3 Autoskills. Dia Espada(Mana wave), Ciel(Mana Wave), DPR UP, Reduce bangle/Lotus seeds and Enchant weapon too. I don't count the counterattack from DPR or reduce bangles autoskill. I'm only counting the magic attack autoskills. Yeah if I posted a screenie of my damage it would be confusing since there would be a bunch of "the effect has been renewed" things all over the place from Reduce Bangle and too many numbers outside of that lol. only ciel, dia & enchant is counted as autoskill. the rest is not a damage item while dpr is not autoskill dependent.
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tasm
Member
Dead bones for sale... ~
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Post by tasm on Apr 22, 2014 5:10:36 GMT
the bandwagoning is a good point. another good point is quantity on additional atks. 4 equipment slots means 4 additional atks maximum. so the goal is to get an additional atk on every equipment slot, then use matk% xtals. that's maximum dmg. automatic ability stars will aid proc rate (but they're kinda hard to acquire).
my experience w/ staff is that its pretty on the crap side of base hit dmg. staff is relying more totally on the additional magic dmg + weaponskills than other weapons. amulet is an exception because its base hit dmg is much higher than would be expected of a weapon with its stats. I haven't yet tested the third upgrade, though.
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denalius
Member
if dreams could come true i would be a ninja (:))
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Post by denalius on Apr 22, 2014 5:27:29 GMT
Lol everyone pls cool off there is no need to argue about what build and weapon does the most damage bcuz basically its up to the player to choose his build so pls calm down and let's end this
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 5:42:51 GMT
i guess i just partied denalius where we argue about an amulet 2s. :<
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 5:49:06 GMT
the bandwagoning is a good point. another good point is quantity on additional atks. 4 equipment slots means 4 additional atks maximum. so the goal is to get an additional atk on every equipment slot, then use matk% xtals. that's maximum dmg. automatic ability stars will aid proc rate (but they're kinda hard to acquire). my experience w/ staff is that its pretty on the crap side of base hit dmg. staff is relying more totally on the additional magic dmg + weaponskills than other weapons. amulet is an exception because its base hit dmg is much higher than would be expected of a weapon with its stats. I haven't yet tested the third upgrade, though. the next boss dungeon will include the materials needed for amulet's second upgrade (amulet 3 in formal form) so i assume the upgrade of amulet will be on the same update as next mission quest. its not yet tested but the existing amulet is great by its own. the upgrade stat will be : sword amulet: matk+3% atk+7% mdef+15% autoskill+5% ATK 162-167.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 5:55:44 GMT
sorry but i reject ALL of your point for paper reason again. don't give me paper. give me real world test. amulet has nothing? well say that to a year old weapon which deals more enchant rate bonus that your spargas weapon. amulet has another upgrade coming so stop seeing its 1 year old side. to be honest, since i was lv130+ nobody talks about enchanter and nobody even know what it does, what weapon it use. once moko video is out, dia espada surpass everything even god. all i see now is complete biased over weapon which nobody know before. now everyone play bossy. dia espada is everything then ashley vid becomes popular and people worship fuma shuriken. i'v been here longer than wizaleon and i see how the trend goes. now the claw video goes popular and almost everyone's dream weapon is ifrit claw. don't you see that fact yet? wake up. There are Enchanters that use Fuma? I thought Flabellum was the clear winner for throwing Enchanter lol, Fuma 2nd, well theres Artemis now too. While I do agree that there is a lack of variety and there's some bandwagoning going on, there is usually a good reason for it. Although Fuma is just weird lol. Thats like using S Rod lol. A lot of Enchanters seem to do off the wall stuff with their gear too. Not talking about cane users with this btw lol. sorry for late reply. for your information, when isurugi update, there is no such thing as "flabellum". people use fuma shuriken for skill delay & matk+5%. i keep getting pm from enchanter's asking what is that purple fan im using and i was like lol this is older than ganaji itself. because of this, fuma shuriken slot was 17m & flabellum has no price. now flabellum 100k slot. increment from no price to low price.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 19:27:46 GMT
Lol everyone pls cool off there is no need to argue about what build and weapon does the most damage bcuz basically its up to the player to choose his build so pls calm down and let's end this Off topic And why is it an considered an arguement whenever people compare/debate builds. We could compare/debate for 3 days over 100 pages and its not an argument. The topic is to help people realise that a staff is another option, Magic swords are not the "Best God Enchanter" weapon, and crushing the stupid stereotype.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 9:07:07 GMT
update Apr 26th, 2039 matk with: amulet++8 fg only 1 slot used no ability dpr up+8 fg mp consumption lv1 green glasses slot sharpness 2 unrefined no ability magic amp ns no ability. dealt 4k lance, 5k bolt, 5k pike & 4k spear to megaroche with water origin. amulet upgrade will add weapon atk value & matk+3% which both will ramp matk more but its not yet available although the materials for upgrade is here. green glasses can simply be slotted with spellboost and might even see 2.3k-2.5k matk. fg.no shojo, no isurugi, no mezaluna, no beelzetor. just the cheap fg. future equip: a glasses with 50% agi to matk as upgrade to current glasses that's only 30% agi to matk. i see 3k matk with this setup. side note: i dont have dex. imagine dex to add matk.
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Post by crazybrker on Apr 27, 2014 8:23:41 GMT
Great topic all. I may have to dig my Amulet+ out of the box. Glad that I didn't throw it away (I think I didn't). I farmed my Amulet+ at lvl 120 and was so bummed on how much it sucked when compared to hexe at the time. Crap attack speed and I lost my OP Mana wave hahaha. Good times. I'm not knocking Amulet, it just wasn't right for me at the time. The new upgrade looks promising.
@syrerin, green glasses seem pretty mediocre right now. At 256 agi, you can only get 76 MATK from it right? So at 2000 MATK that's only a 3.8% bump. If you are doing it to maximize the damage of 1 attack, OK I get it. Otherwise Ciel would be better giving you an extra autoskill/autocast, IMO.
I'd love to play around with Resty and compare it to my Dia, W knife and Amulet+. Who drops it and how much does the spell boost increase your MATK? Once I get one and a magic amp, I'll do a nice write up full with numbers for you all.
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