|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 3:33:39 GMT
Again, if you are relying on the AUTOCAST then the staff would be better hands down. And magic amp doesnt work with throwing or magic sword, only with staff. ... Posting what you used from 120-140 and saying you ddnt have a prob doesnt mean it was good. It would almost be a waste of time to play as enchantet before 140 because of poor autocast rates, lack of defense and damage. pretty much all im hearing is the melee cons, which is something already mentioned. If matk xtals are added to an already strong matk style enchanter than you get an even stronger auto casting enchanter. While I do think that using magic staff or dielita/amulet+ are viable options for Enchanter, I completely disagree that they are better hands down when relying on autoskills. There a few reasons for this: 1)The most obvious is the speed of Staffs as opposed to swords and throwing. It is slower, not by much but it is still slower. 2)You act as if Magic Amp is is by far superior to the other special equip options for Enchanter. It is a little bit better I believe, but not much. Also getting slot would probably be way more difficult than getting Slot Lotus Seeds/Reduce Bangle. 3)You would most likely sacrifice points in DEX for higher AGI. Probably isn't as much of an issue at higher levels(like190+) but you do get a small amount of MATK from DEX and you will not have good hit rate overall with 1 DEX unless you are using hit crystals, which would mean less MATK crystals. WIth how much Enchanters are affected by MDEF I do think this setup would be better for an Enchanter with less MATK crystals. The reason why it wouldn't work as well when Enchanters are more geared is that the extra speed/autoskill rate/autoskill would make more of a difference when you have good enough MATK already. Example) Syerin hits 6k Autoskills, probablly like 5k mana wave. He has one mana wave and enchant weapon most likely. He averages 1.5 autoskills per attack. That's about 8-9k on average(he maybe hits like 500-700 damage with an amulet+ idk but w/e to that not gonna include it). He also attacks a little bit slower. He could have the extra autoskill from witch knife or Dielita though but his autoskill rate would be lower and more random. I honestly think he would do better damage with Dielita than Amulet+ overall. Simlar to the reduce bangle option below. I hit 3.5-4k mana waves and about 4.5k enchant weapon. If I'm using Lotus Seeds I have the same auto rate as Syerin, but I have 1.5 times the autoskills. So about 2.25 autoskills per attack on average(I'm probably saying too much auto rate for both of us lol, math would end up the same anyways). so I might average around 8-9k per attack too. Except I attack faster and will get a bigger % improvement with better gear than Syerin would. Reduce Bangle from what I've noticed recently is better DPS(more random though) than lotus seeds too so this is the weaker setup for me. This isn't really a very big difference between the two if you think about it, but you said magic staff is far superior, when it is probably inferior in most cases. It does have the added benefit of faster Tbolt casting for para support though, that is its main pro, and that it does better with little to no MATK crystals. you cant use me in this comparison. i hit max aspd with staff.
|
|
aroxis
Member
I liek cupcakes .-.
|
Post by aroxis on Apr 15, 2014 3:34:11 GMT
Again, if you are relying on the AUTOCAST then the staff would be better hands down. And magic amp doesnt work with throwing or magic sword, only with staff. ... Posting what you used from 120-140 and saying you ddnt have a prob doesnt mean it was good. It would almost be a waste of time to play as enchantet before 140 because of poor autocast rates, lack of defense and damage. pretty much all im hearing is the melee cons, which is something already mentioned. If matk xtals are added to an already strong matk style enchanter than you get an even stronger auto casting enchanter. While I do think that using magic staff or dielita/amulet+ are viable options for Enchanter, I completely disagree that they are better hands down when relying on autoskills. There a few reasons for this: 1)The most obvious is the speed of Staffs as opposed to swords and throwing. It is slower, not by much but it is still slower. 2)You act as if Magic Amp is is by far superior to the other special equip options for Enchanter. It is a little bit better I believe, but not much. Also getting slot would probably be way more difficult than getting Slot Lotus Seeds/Reduce Bangle. 3)You would most likely sacrifice points in DEX for higher AGI. Probably isn't as much of an issue at higher levels(like190+) but you do get a small amount of MATK from DEX and you will not have good hit rate overall with 1 DEX unless you are using hit crystals, which would mean less MATK crystals. WIth how much Enchanters are affected by MDEF I do think this setup would be better for an Enchanter with less MATK crystals. The reason why it wouldn't work as well when Enchanters are more geared is that the extra speed/autoskill rate/autoskill would make more of a difference when you have good enough MATK already. Example) Syerin hits 6k Autoskills, probablly like 5k mana wave. He has one mana wave and enchant weapon most likely. He averages 1.5 autoskills per attack. That's about 8-9k on average(he maybe hits like 500-700 damage with an amulet+ idk but w/e to that not gonna include it). He also attacks a little bit slower. He could have the extra autoskill from witch knife or Dielita though but his autoskill rate would be lower and more random. I honestly think he would do better damage with Dielita than Amulet+ overall. Simlar to the reduce bangle option below. I hit 3.5-4k mana waves and about 4.5k enchant weapon. If I'm using Lotus Seeds I have the same auto rate as Syerin, but I have 1.5 times the autoskills. So about 2.25 autoskills per attack on average(I'm probably saying too much auto rate for both of us lol, math would end up the same anyways). so I might average around 8-9k per attack too. Except I attack faster and will get a bigger % improvement with better gear than Syerin would. Reduce Bangle from what I've noticed recently is better DPS(more random though) than lotus seeds too so this is the weaker setup for me. This isn't really a very big difference between the two if you think about it, but you said magic staff is far superior, when it is probably inferior in most cases. It does have the added benefit of faster Tbolt casting for para support though, that is its main pro, and that it does better with little to no MATK crystals. Explained like a pro *bows*
|
|
|
Post by ManaKhe on Apr 15, 2014 3:37:29 GMT
I will also mention what people are saying about crappy damage at 120-140 on enchanters doing melee. Lets compare it to say AGI CRT builds(will go with strongest at this point, app gladiator). I'll compare decent gear on both.
Gladiator-Koda Up slot BC, Schwartz slot BC, H helm slot BC, mq special BC. This will hit like 4k regular crits and 7kish double roughly I think.
Enchanter-Dia Espada FG, DPR FG, Ciel FG, Lotus seeds. This will usually only hit 1 mana wave per attack, which will do about 4k. The actually attack will hit about 1.5k. Thats 1.5k(kind of rare), 5.5k(most common), 10k(kind of rare).
The damage for both would suck without good gear regardless at this point, more so on Enchanter but those two do very similar damage. Since we have Ciel now enchanters actually do okay damage from 120-140, before it was pretty bad but not anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 3:43:33 GMT
just go with this. genius mind would search deeper in wiki.
int agi crt build: *atk boost by magic staff at cap aspd for sure as high agi. *green glasses grants several extra atk from agi & matk from crt. *even if you dont fancy magic staff, amulet+ does 7% atk & future upgrade will add 3% matk. *burnos crystas. who the heck gonna sell this for 4m? cheap and reliable. *upgrade of battleclaw will grant autoskill increment by agi. i have high agi. what this means...? *you evade more. ganei? pfft.
just my personal equip. i agree if you disagree. its not a conventional one anyway.
|
|
|
Post by ManaKhe on Apr 15, 2014 3:58:32 GMT
With the same speed as sword/throwing my comparison still shows that Staff is inferior. Our damage overall is probably about the same but if we were to both get another slot, be it from 2s weapon or slot Magic Amp/Lotus seeds/Reduce bangle, my damage would improve more than yours because of the way mob MDEF works on us. Where your autoskills may go from 6k to 7.5k with a Mezzaluna, mine would go from 3.5k-4.5k to about 5k-5.5k. My overall damage would have a higher % improvement than yours. Since our damage is about the same right now if I get a better improvement in my damage than you my damage would become higher. The difference would become bigger if we had 5 slots instead of 4 like I'm talking about now. People also need to consider the fact that getting 2s Boss claymore is way easier than 2s Amulet and getting slot lotus seeds is way easier than getting slot magic amp. So beyond the point that we are at now it will be easier for me to get better gear than you. Edit:The "you can't use me as comparison..." part is what syerin said, not me, idk how to remove the "manakhe said" part lol.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 5:05:57 GMT
With the same speed as sword/throwing my comparison still shows that Staff is inferior. Our damage overall is probably about the same but if we were to both get another slot, be it from 2s weapon or slot Magic Amp/Lotus seeds/Reduce bangle, my damage would improve more than yours because of the way mob MDEF works on us. Where your autoskills may go from 6k to 7.5k with a Mezzaluna, mine would go from 3.5k-4.5k to about 5k-5.5k. My overall damage would have a higher % improvement than yours. Since our damage is about the same right now if I get a better improvement in my damage than you my damage would become higher. The difference would become bigger if we had 5 slots instead of 4 like I'm talking about now. People also need to consider the fact that getting 2s Boss claymore is way easier than 2s Amulet and getting slot lotus seeds is way easier than getting slot magic amp. So beyond the point that we are at now it will be easier for me to get better gear than you. Edit:The "you can't use me as comparison..." part is what syerin said, not me, idk how to remove the "manakhe said" part lol. what makes you think so? enchanter lost all cane abilities from wizard? i afraid not. why on earth would another slot makes cane worst? i dont get it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 5:14:33 GMT
it doesn't matter what your passive says. enchant: "atk boost based on int & matk rise as canes" may sound promising but dont limit yourself to that statement. i personally love to mimic other classes by using their weapon and to my surprise cane is the best damaging weapon i'v ever used.
the only thing why i wont use it is because of its low melee damage & the lame swinging stance. if asobimo decided to change the stance to a better one, i would get my amulet now and yell im sorry for leaving it in storage.
|
|
|
Post by ManaKhe on Apr 15, 2014 5:45:37 GMT
With the same speed as sword/throwing my comparison still shows that Staff is inferior. Our damage overall is probably about the same but if we were to both get another slot, be it from 2s weapon or slot Magic Amp/Lotus seeds/Reduce bangle, my damage would improve more than yours because of the way mob MDEF works on us. Where your autoskills may go from 6k to 7.5k with a Mezzaluna, mine would go from 3.5k-4.5k to about 5k-5.5k. My overall damage would have a higher % improvement than yours. Since our damage is about the same right now if I get a better improvement in my damage than you my damage would become higher. The difference would become bigger if we had 5 slots instead of 4 like I'm talking about now. People also need to consider the fact that getting 2s Boss claymore is way easier than 2s Amulet and getting slot lotus seeds is way easier than getting slot magic amp. So beyond the point that we are at now it will be easier for me to get better gear than you. Edit:The "you can't use me as comparison..." part is what syerin said, not me, idk how to remove the "manakhe said" part lol. what makes you think so? enchanter lost all cane abilities from wizard? i afraid not. why on earth would another slot makes cane worst? i dont get it. Because of MDEF of mobs. Lets say you hit 8k on chako while I hit 6k. 2k MDEF on a mob would drop you to 6k and my to 4k. Now you get more MATK and start doing 9k to chakos while I got more and do 7k now. 2k MDEF now drops you to 7k, while me to 5k. The % gap in power between us has now changed. I'm sure this isn't EXACTLY how it works but it's pretty close. So because of mobs MDEF I get a higher boost in damage than you would from more MATK. I mostly figure it works like this because spell boost doubles my damage output while only increasing MATK by 40%. Only real way to explain why it boosts it that much.
|
|
badeko
Member
down w the army of darkness!!
|
Post by badeko on Apr 15, 2014 9:10:37 GMT
Dia espada @163(+9) s/shojo vs leddle colon casting fire spear w fire origin (highest dmg 7375)
Resty rod@173(+8) s/shojo vs leee colon casting fire spear w fire orgin (highest dmg 8k+)
Same weaps but with added autoskill buff ,meleeing : results are the same
Same weaps w added enchant buff, meleeing : results are practically the same
Resty rod s/shojo @173+8> Dia espada 163+9 s/shojo
I used dpr up s/shojo and divergent sword s/isu and lotus seed ns to test this.
|
|
badeko
Member
down w the army of darkness!!
|
Post by badeko on Apr 15, 2014 9:16:26 GMT
An enchanter with a rod shud not be bashed becuz magic sword are theyre speciality. This test shows that a rod can be just as good. Thabks tilt for bringing this topic up. I doubtd this at first but now i kinda like the idea.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 9:16:51 GMT
what makes you think so? enchanter lost all cane abilities from wizard? i afraid not. why on earth would another slot makes cane worst? i dont get it. Because of MDEF of mobs. Lets say you hit 8k on chako while I hit 6k. 2k MDEF on a mob would drop you to 6k and my to 4k. Now you get more MATK and start doing 9k to chakos while I got more and do 7k now. 2k MDEF now drops you to 7k, while me to 5k. The % gap in power between us has now changed. I'm sure this isn't EXACTLY how it works but it's pretty close. So because of mobs MDEF I get a higher boost in damage than you would from more MATK. I mostly figure it works like this because spell boost doubles my damage output while only increasing MATK by 40%. Only real way to explain why it boosts it that much. those damage you've shown is pretty much int/dex/agi from my conclusion and its in favor to magic sword which is totally unfair to cane user. of course, magic sword will deal more because you've build it to work with magic sword. cane build is slightly diff going for int/agi/dex. all these 3 stats will add matk to your cane using magic amp. the amount of matk gained with the right build is equal if not better but i can say for sure that if you're depending on trigger rate fully, then amulet+ is a better choice. for afk player that comes to rebuff every minutes, amulet deal more magic damage & more trigger rate at the expense of melee damage and weapon autos. for afk player that takes afk to the fullest, dia espada definitely better for its melee & auto mana wave.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 9:18:10 GMT
Dia espada @163(+9) s/shojo vs leddle colon casting fire spear w fire origin (highest dmg 7375) Resty rod@173(+8) s/shojo vs leee colon casting fire spear w fire orgin (highest dmg 8k+) Same weaps but with added autoskill buff ,meleeing : results are the same Same weaps w added enchant buff, meleeing : results are practically the same Resty rod s/shojo @173+8> Dia espada 163+9 s/shojo I used dpr up s/shojo and divergent sword s/isu and lotus seed ns to test this. the only way i could reach that high magic damage is by using cane too. hail the killer.
|
|
|
Post by itoffee on Apr 15, 2014 10:42:31 GMT
This sounds really good but no so great atm. Maybe we can get max aspd with 135 agi after getting the 220 skill quest that adds 20% aspd? Plus if we are missing any autoskill% we can use the automatic ability.
I dunno bout you guys you wanna afk build though. Numbers looks nice on paper but might not be so good in testing. How bout magic sword till 220?then switch to auto attacking with staff?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 11:11:16 GMT
This sounds really good but no so great atm. Maybe we can get max aspd with 135 agi after getting the 220 skill quest that adds 20% aspd? Plus if we are missing any autoskill% we can use the automatic ability. I dunno bout you guys you wanna afk build though. Numbers looks nice on paper but might not be so good in testing. How bout magic sword till 220?then switch to auto attacking with staff? magic blade burns you in probability if you don't mind. edited. if you're really utilizing this skill for almost any condition, it will be super effective at level 240. just a friendly out-of-topic info.
|
|
badeko
Member
down w the army of darkness!!
|
Post by badeko on Apr 15, 2014 12:42:06 GMT
For a small note i am not int dex agi build.
|
|