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Post by Jeancarlo on Jun 4, 2015 21:27:48 GMT
Been running some numbers, and I am not sure if I am missing something or not, or STR is almost exclusive to some classes/builds only? Specifically, classes/builds who use melee dmg, but not Crt dmg (Arrow rain, BK it looks like, spc swords (crt actually is -1 atk so rather counter productive). In a Very Large way, once diminishing return sets in. According to the formulas here, irunaonline.boards.net/thread/10732/unwritten-formulasWhite Dmg is Which is essentially additive, and once you get past mob defense, anything added is simply that much more dmg (after the +ATK%). Simply put, if you See 2k dmg on a mob, and you add X Atk (from str, agi, int, even crt), x what ever +ATK% you have, that's what gets added to that 2K dmg you saw previously Crt Dmg is Which is multiplicative, almost exclusive to addition of CRT stat (outside of direct Crt Dmg%) With me so far?Assuming both formulas are correct, and I have not seen anyone post other wise, with or without proof: the table belows shows where CRT surpasses STR in over all value (the numbers at the top should say Base Dmg (as in what you SEE floating above mob). The bolded section shows the division when STR's contribution is met, and later surpassed, by CRT. Because STR (and any other stat that adds ATK) is additive, there is diminishing return vis a vis your current base data. Adding 10 Pts when you have 1000 atk is 1%. Adding the same 10 pts when you have 2500 atk is 0.4%. Since CRT is a multiplier for CRT DMG, adding 2 CRT (1%) is the same whether your current dmg is 1,000 to 10,000 Ex. Top set is for Special Nails, that receive +4 ATK per point in str (for discussion purposes, ignoring the fact that Spc nail also gets 1ATk from crt). When you see WHITE Dmg more than 800, this table says it's better to start dumping stats to CRT, pretty much forever (AFAIK, there is NO limit or at least we have not reached it).  PS The reason why I went with STR (as opposed to Dex, or Agi or Int) is simply because of all the other stats, STR is the only one that does nothing for us other than to add ATK. Literally No other benefit/loss from it outside of ATK. |
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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Jun 6, 2015 4:36:58 GMT
I dont get your point. You need both atk and crt dmg multipliers to be up for optimum dmg.
In a simple sense:
3 x 3 > 4 x 2 or 2 x 4 > 1 x 5 or 5 x 1
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Post by Jeancarlo on Jun 6, 2015 13:49:54 GMT
I dont get your point. You need both atk and crt dmg multipliers to be up for optimum dmg. In a simple sense: 3 x 3 > 4 x 2 or 2 x 4 > 1 x 5 or 5 x 1 It's not so much a point, as a question about the accuracy of the formulas I am using here, vis a vis how things do in fact work in game. First sentence of post: Because according to the results, given a choice between CRT and Str (and obviously, if you have enough to max both or can't use one or the other, then this is moot), the point when STR's benefits goes below CRT's, is pretty low, stat wise. Note that I didn't say CRT surpasses STR. since CRT's contribution is static, while STR's has diminishing return. As a Glad using normal swords, for example, this means that when you're at a point when you're hitting at least 601 White dmg (whether it be mobs or boss), you're better off putting as much point into CRT before adding anything more to STR (mind you, I am not familiar with all the glad skill formulas, which may eschew some of the formulas in this thread). You know Glads more than I do; but how much STR do you think one needs (all other things being equal) to get to that point in White Dmg? With that answer in mind, my question is, is that accurate - vis a vis these formulas here? |
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mokie
Community Contributor 
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Post by mokie on Jun 6, 2015 20:21:48 GMT
I dont get your point. You need both atk and crt dmg multipliers to be up for optimum dmg. In a simple sense: 3 x 3 > 4 x 2 or 2 x 4 > 1 x 5 or 5 x 1 It's not so much a point, as a question about the accuracy of the formulas I am using here, vis a vis how things do in fact work in game. First sentence of post: Because according to the results, given a choice between CRT and Str (and obviously, if you have enough to max both or can't use one or the other, then this is moot), the point when STR's benefits goes below CRT's, is pretty low, stat wise. Note that I didn't say CRT surpasses STR. since CRT's contribution is static, while STR's has diminishing return. As a Glad using normal swords, for example, this means that when you're at a point when you're hitting at least 601 White dmg (whether it be mobs or boss), you're better off putting as much point into CRT before adding anything more to STR (mind you, I am not familiar with all the glad skill formulas, which may eschew some of the formulas in this thread). You know Glads more than I do; but how much STR do you think one needs (all other things being equal) to get to that point in White Dmg? With that answer in mind, my question is, is that accurate - vis a vis these formulas here?miligrito actually said the right thing. If you want to max orange damage, we should match between both atk and crt. If I worn sword, sometimes str is better than crt. However, crt can be better than str sometimes. Come back to your assumption, if I am hitting average of 601 white dmg, I have only 1crt, and I am a swordman who always use normal sword with no element, 1crt will add 0.5%. Thus, my critical dmg(orange dmg) should be about 601*1.51(I have 2crt)=907.5. On the other hand, if I decide to add one more str, my atk that is added should make white dmg become 604. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 604*1.505(I have 1crt)=909. >>Therefore, str is better than crt at this point. Come to my first example, if I am hitting average of 1000 white dmg, I have only 1crt, and I am a swordman who always use normal sword with no element, 1crt will add 0.5%. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 1000*1.51(I have 2crt)=1510. On the other hand, if I add str, my white dmg will be 1003. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 1003*1.505(I have 1crt)=1509.5. >>Therefore, crt is better than str for me. How about my second example? If I am hitting average of 1000 white dmg, I have already had 300crt, and I am a swordman who always use normal sword with no element, 1crt will add 0.5%. Thus, my critical dmg should be 1000*3.005(I have 301crt)=3005. On the other hand, if I add str, my white dmg will be 1003. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 1003*3.00(I have 300crt)=3009. >>Therefore, str is better than crt at this point. So, I can conclude like miligrito said. In a simple sense: 3 x 3 > 4 x 2 or 2 x 4 > 1 x 5 or 5 x 1 |
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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Jun 7, 2015 5:09:57 GMT
Well the math in the chart is simple and correct but the representation is misleading because there are alot of factors involved when you apply it to the application which was not included in the chart. Results will be dynamic when you apply all the factors involved and it will require a vast number of charts.
You could conduct a DOE (design of experiment) to obtain optimum parameters but it will still be limited to that certain instance (specific gear, lvl, mob) as the results will be different when you change any of those factors (a lvl50 will deal different dmg from a lvl280 given the same atk value on the same mob).
It is also for this reason that the debate where atk xtals vs crit dmg xtals have no definite answer unless you become more specific.
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Post by Jeancarlo on Jun 7, 2015 23:54:46 GMT
It's not so much a point, as a question about the accuracy of the formulas I am using here, vis a vis how things do in fact work in game. First sentence of post: Because according to the results, given a choice between CRT and Str (and obviously, if you have enough to max both or can't use one or the other, then this is moot), the point when STR's benefits goes below CRT's, is pretty low, stat wise. Note that I didn't say CRT surpasses STR. since CRT's contribution is static, while STR's has diminishing return. As a Glad using normal swords, for example, this means that when you're at a point when you're hitting at least 601 White dmg (whether it be mobs or boss), you're better off putting as much point into CRT before adding anything more to STR (mind you, I am not familiar with all the glad skill formulas, which may eschew some of the formulas in this thread). You know Glads more than I do; but how much STR do you think one needs (all other things being equal) to get to that point in White Dmg? With that answer in mind, my question is, is that accurate - vis a vis these formulas here?miligrito actually said the right thing. If you want to max orange damage, we should match between both atk and crt. If I worn sword, sometimes str is better than crt. However, crt can be better than str sometimes. Come back to your assumption, if I am hitting average of 601 white dmg, I have only 1crt, and I am a swordman who always use normal sword with no element, 1crt will add 0.5%. Thus, my critical dmg(orange dmg) should be about 601*1.51(I have 2crt)=907.5. On the other hand, if I decide to add one more str, my atk that is added should make white dmg become 604. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 604*1.505(I have 1crt)=909. >>Therefore, str is better than crt at this point. Come to my first example, if I am hitting average of 1000 white dmg, I have only 1crt, and I am a swordman who always use normal sword with no element, 1crt will add 0.5%. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 1000*1.51(I have 2crt)=1510. On the other hand, if I add str, my white dmg will be 1003. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 1003*1.505(I have 1crt)=1509.5. >>Therefore, crt is better than str for me. How about my second example? If I am hitting average of 1000 white dmg, I have already had 300crt, and I am a swordman who always use normal sword with no element, 1crt will add 0.5%. Thus, my critical dmg should be 1000*3.005(I have 301crt)=3005. On the other hand, if I add str, my white dmg will be 1003. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 1003*3.00(I have 300crt)=3009. >>Therefore, str is better than crt at this point. So, I can conclude like miligrito said. In a simple sense: 3 x 3 > 4 x 2 or 2 x 4 > 1 x 5 or 5 x 1 I found an error in my calculation, forgetting that CRT DMG has a base 1.5 ( so that 600 sword should be 900), thank you. Try these numbers: 0 CRT (i know, not possible) 900 DMG (this would be similar to the 600 I had previously for Sword) 100 CRT 1200 DMG (equiv to 100 pts in Str = 300 DMG) 200 CRT 1500 DMG (again, equiv to 200 pts Str = 600 Dmg) 300 CRT 1800 DMG (blah blah) Once you got all those,. increment any of them by 1 either in STR or CRT. Each of these are the ":breaking point" for a lack of a better term, where CRT surpasses STR. And again. NOT trying to make a point; in a sense the point was made with these formulas (by the Devs  ) which I am trying to see if they do in fact work as advertized. |
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mokie
Community Contributor
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Post by mokie on Jun 8, 2015 2:24:16 GMT
miligrito actually said the right thing. If you want to max orange damage, we should match between both atk and crt. If I worn sword, sometimes str is better than crt. However, crt can be better than str sometimes. Come back to your assumption, if I am hitting average of 601 white dmg, I have only 1crt, and I am a swordman who always use normal sword with no element, 1crt will add 0.5%. Thus, my critical dmg(orange dmg) should be about 601*1.51(I have 2crt)=907.5. On the other hand, if I decide to add one more str, my atk that is added should make white dmg become 604. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 604*1.505(I have 1crt)=909. >>Therefore, str is better than crt at this point. Come to my first example, if I am hitting average of 1000 white dmg, I have only 1crt, and I am a swordman who always use normal sword with no element, 1crt will add 0.5%. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 1000*1.51(I have 2crt)=1510. On the other hand, if I add str, my white dmg will be 1003. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 1003*1.505(I have 1crt)=1509.5. >>Therefore, crt is better than str for me. How about my second example? If I am hitting average of 1000 white dmg, I have already had 300crt, and I am a swordman who always use normal sword with no element, 1crt will add 0.5%. Thus, my critical dmg should be 1000*3.005(I have 301crt)=3005. On the other hand, if I add str, my white dmg will be 1003. Thus, my critical dmg should be about 1003*3.00(I have 300crt)=3009. >>Therefore, str is better than crt at this point. So, I can conclude like miligrito said. In a simple sense: 3 x 3 > 4 x 2 or 2 x 4 > 1 x 5 or 5 x 1 I found an error in my calculation, forgetting that CRT DMG has a base 1.5 ( so that 600 sword should be 900), thank you. Try these numbers: 0 CRT (i know, not possible) 900 DMG (this would be similar to the 600 I had previously for Sword) 100 CRT 1200 DMG (equiv to 100 pts in Str = 300 DMG) 200 CRT 1500 DMG (again, equiv to 200 pts Str = 600 Dmg) 300 CRT 1800 DMG (blah blah) Once you got all those,. increment any of them by 1 either in STR or CRT. Each of these are the ":breaking point" for a lack of a better term, where CRT surpasses STR. And again. NOT trying to make a point; in a sense the point was made with these formulas (by the Devs ) which I am trying to see if they do in fact work as advertized. I understand you breaking point, but I have to say something. Your breaking piont is not the point that CRT will surpasses STR. On the other hand, it is the point that CRT equal STR. After this point, whatever you put, another one will be added value. Again, I will use your example. Also, I am a swordman who always use normal sword with no element. 0 CRT (Assume it is possible. LOL) 900 DMG After I add 1CRT and become 1 CRT, the next one which I should add is STR to make 903 DMG to keep myself on the point that you refer as breaking point. I cannot keep putting on only CRT nor STR because I will lose the balance of the damage output. 100 CRT 1200 DMG After I add 1CRT and become 101 CRT, the next one which I should add is STR to make 1203 DMG to keep myself on the point that you refer as breaking point. 200 CRT 1500 DMG After I add 1CRT and become 201 CRT, the next one which I should add is STR to make 1503 DMG to keep myself on the point. 300 CRT 1800 DMG And again, after I add 1CRT and become 301 CRT, the next one which I should add is STR to make 1203 DMG to keep myself on the point that you refer as breaking point. Actually, each of those should be the "optimum points." It is the optimum value of the damage output with lowest status point. And again, In a simple sense: 3 x 3 > 4 x 2 or 2 x 4 > 1 x 5 or 5 x 1 If the first number is the value of adding DMG and the second number is the value of adding CRT, I will keep both of them in the balance, your breaking point, and my optimum point. After I hit this point, I should build both crt and str equally. |
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Post by Jeancarlo on Jun 8, 2015 15:52:43 GMT
I found an error in my calculation, forgetting that CRT DMG has a base 1.5 ( so that 600 sword should be 900), thank you. Try these numbers: 0 CRT (i know, not possible) 900 DMG (this would be similar to the 600 I had previously for Sword) 100 CRT 1200 DMG (equiv to 100 pts in Str = 300 DMG) 200 CRT 1500 DMG (again, equiv to 200 pts Str = 600 Dmg) 300 CRT 1800 DMG (blah blah) Once you got all those,. increment any of them by 1 either in STR or CRT. Each of these are the ":breaking point" for a lack of a better term, where CRT surpasses STR. And again. NOT trying to make a point; in a sense the point was made with these formulas (by the Devs ) which I am trying to see if they do in fact work as advertized. I understand you breaking point, but I have to say something. Your breaking piont is not the point that CRT will surpasses STR. On the other hand, it is the point that CRT equal STR. After this point, whatever you put, another one will be added value. I think you're right. My table's not complete as it's only adding 1 stat (Either Str or Crt) but it's (now) obvious that the 'breaking point' I was calling previously changes as Both goes up, and it's because it moves as both moves. |
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Post by Cerulean on Jul 18, 2015 16:30:19 GMT
In some cases CRT outweighs STR you can pump crit while keeping str lower though, nommars being best to level off (IMO) are relatively squishy so a lower base with a higher multiplier works well. Do keep in mind though there are many more atk+% xtals easily available and with higher % vs crit ones and most al xtals as well, you can balance it and close the gap that way which is a better economical strategy when it comes to building a character all and all really depends what you wanna do. Boss farms need a higher base, leveling a higher multiplier so basically for best results you should focus on one of those play styles and stick to it till high level when you're easily able to do either.
Edit: the proof is in the experience as a player not everything can be determined by numbers graphs and charts but first hand experience
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Post by Capicuo on Jul 21, 2015 11:28:16 GMT
From my understanding, raising crt dmg via xtal is better when u have a decent base atk points.
I'll explain it with an example:
A few days ago I was samu and thanks to its passive, wich raises crt damage, and absolute clarity, wich raises CRT by lvl; I focused my stat points in VIT/DEX/STR for pure dmg with spec swords. My crt hits dealed 20-25k with crt dmg% xtal (cerberus, minenaga, etc)
Now I'm Minstrel and with the same equip and DEX/CRT/STR my CRT dmg was only 7k, so I changed to atk% xtal (minenaga, vida, etc). My crt dmg hits 15k now.
So I think an equality between atk and crt dmg is needed to deal high crt damage. It depends mostly on job's bonus and skills, so every different job has its own optimal combination.
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) which I am trying to see if they do in fact work as advertized.
