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Post by rave on Dec 19, 2018 1:51:29 GMT
We are straying away from the original topic...
To finalize: New hw skills are crap on bosses but so so on new high hp mobs. New skill seems to eat away more mp so that means more mp recharge, which also means more -hp for us. AND don't forget that only earthquake is our spammable and our only reliable aoe cuz of its wide range and faster cast time vs meteor. Doing about x10 earthquake means you are at half of your hp cuz of that recoil and mp recharge (spamming on mobs).
Still preferred to use zero on bosses cuz its more reliable than imp combo BUT dps is still slower compared to other class who just spam 1 insta skill and boom high damage. Hw has to cast bandersnatch then zero which takes about 3-5 secs with high probability of dying now thanks to the rebalance and don't forget its high mp cost so u gotta mp recharge all the time meaning more -hp again. Doing new skills on bosses is more unreliable cuz u are either dead or dead XD. So now we are back to being glass with meh dps(cuz we got high % of dying even with tank). Don't even say just add more vit or agi. We need high int and dex and crt to begin with for our skills to dmg good so we can only add just a few for survivability stats.
P.S. This is not a rant, just stating facts...
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Post by Undyne on Dec 19, 2018 3:48:23 GMT
We are straying away from the original topic... To finalize: New hw skills are crap on bosses but so so on new high hp mobs. New skill seems to eat away more mp so that means more mp recharge, which also means more -hp for us. AND don't forget that only earthquake is our spammable and our only reliable aoe cuz of its wide range and faster cast time vs meteor. Doing about x10 earthquake means you are at half of your hp cuz of that recoil and mp recharge (spamming on mobs). Still preferred to use zero on bosses cuz its more reliable than imp combo BUT dps is still slower compared to other class who just spam 1 insta skill and boom high damage. Hw has to cast bandersnatch then zero which takes about 3-5 secs with high probability of dying now thanks to the rebalance and don't forget its high mp cost so u gotta mp recharge all the time meaning more -hp again. Doing new skills on bosses is more unreliable cuz u are either dead or dead XD. So now we are back to being glass with meh dps(cuz we got high % of dying even with tank). Don't even say just add more vit or agi. We need high int and dex and crt to begin with for our skills to dmg good so we can only add just a few for survivability stats. P.S. This is not a rant, just stating facts... New skills (to me at least) seem better for Pt play(survival wise). They might not do as much dmg sure, but they're not THAT much of a dps hit when you factor in how much more time you spend actually dealing dmg and not rebuffing/reviving.. You have much greater range, which means you're further out of AoE range than you would be while using ZR. Ofc if you have a true tank (getting into this in the last paragraph) you won't need to worry much about dying to AoE. I'd sincerely recommend using Range cut%. Let's look at current best Hw add gears. Sage hat (17% Range cut) and Braid Headband (10% Range cut, can also be dropped with Range Cut abis.). I've truly never thought Hw should have a survival buff, because it's job is ranged Dmg/AoE, which it does well, and it's "end game" equipment supports this theory (range cut% works amazing for dps classes in general.) Hw is still the highest instant magic dmg class in the game(Hence why people prefer Hw on the earlier bosses). While other Magic classes (Necro, Bish, Ench, and M Ninja) all suffer in shorter battles dmg wise. Hw is like a sin, it's squishy and it's dps drops off quite a bit later into the battle when compared to alternatives, at least by my perception. *Not related to quoted post As for the tanking debate, mins,ninja etc are not tanks. A tank protects the party from dying, its not just standing there and letting the boss beat on you until someone needs to be revived. Mins doesn't have any skills to reduce dmg pt members take, neither does ninja, or really any class aside from Servants and the Knight tree. Paladins have many skills to do this, Beast knights fear howl actually gives a large range cut buff(reducing AoE dmg pt takes), and gladiator now has Volunteer (heard it's a 75% dmg cut to pt). Mins buffs just increase HP/Eva, which by themselves will not keep the party alive. On bosses who AoE frequently (Joshuca, Sauro II, Ignatz, etc) a class who can't reduce AoE dmg the pt takes IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE TANK. I believe this is what Makina Yuki was trying to explain
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Post by rave on Dec 19, 2018 5:13:11 GMT
We are straying away from the original topic... To finalize: New hw skills are crap on bosses but so so on new high hp mobs. New skill seems to eat away more mp so that means more mp recharge, which also means more -hp for us. AND don't forget that only earthquake is our spammable and our only reliable aoe cuz of its wide range and faster cast time vs meteor. Doing about x10 earthquake means you are at half of your hp cuz of that recoil and mp recharge (spamming on mobs). Still preferred to use zero on bosses cuz its more reliable than imp combo BUT dps is still slower compared to other class who just spam 1 insta skill and boom high damage. Hw has to cast bandersnatch then zero which takes about 3-5 secs with high probability of dying now thanks to the rebalance and don't forget its high mp cost so u gotta mp recharge all the time meaning more -hp again. Doing new skills on bosses is more unreliable cuz u are either dead or dead XD. So now we are back to being glass with meh dps(cuz we got high % of dying even with tank). Don't even say just add more vit or agi. We need high int and dex and crt to begin with for our skills to dmg good so we can only add just a few for survivability stats. P.S. This is not a rant, just stating facts... New skills (to me at least) seem better for Pt play(survival wise). They might not do as much dmg sure, but they're not THAT much of a dps hit when you factor in how much more time you spend actually dealing dmg and not rebuffing/reviving.. You have much greater range, which means you're further out of AoE range than you would be while using ZR. Ofc if you have a true tank (getting into this in the last paragraph) you won't need to worry much about dying to AoE. I'd sincerely recommend using Range cut%. Let's look at current best Hw add gears. Sage hat (17% Range cut) and Braid Headband (10% Range cut, can also be dropped with Range Cut abis.). I've truly never thought Hw should have a survival buff, because it's job is ranged Dmg/AoE, which it does well, and it's "end game" equipment supports this theory (range cut% works amazing for dps classes in general.) Hw is still the highest instant magic dmg class in the game(Hence why people prefer Hw on the earlier bosses). While other Magic classes (Necro, Bish, Ench, and M Ninja) all suffer in shorter battles dmg wise. Hw is like a sin, it's squishy and it's dps drops off quite a bit later into the battle when compared to alternatives, at least by my perception. *Not related to quoted post As for the tanking debate, mins,ninja etc are not tanks. A tank protects the party from dying, its not just standing there and letting the boss beat on you until someone needs to be revived. Mins doesn't have any skills to reduce dmg pt members take, neither does ninja, or really any class aside from Servants and the Knight tree. Paladins have many skills to do this, Beast knights fear howl actually gives a large range cut buff(reducing AoE dmg pt takes), and gladiator now has Volunteer (heard it's a 75% dmg cut to pt). Mins buffs just increase HP/Eva, which by themselves will not keep the party alive. On bosses who AoE frequently (Joshuca, Sauro II, Ignatz, etc) a class who can't reduce AoE dmg the pt takes IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE TANK. I believe this is what Makina Yuki was trying to explain uhmm it's a bit useless on big bosses and other bosses with good drops and most new bosses. all the big bosses such as Raton, Sauro, Ouvel, Joshuca, fred etc. has no elem weaknesses or only has weakness to light/dark so no choice but to use zero ray. the only boss i think is useful for the new skills is agira jarma but only for pt play. at solo there's no way you'll use the new skills. also hw range is MID. we get caught in most aoes. can't also compare to sin cuz sin got survival (eva) while hw has paper skin, we die on hit cuz we cant miss bosses' hits. True, the true purpose of HW is damaging, but compared to other classes's dmg, ours now is avarage. bish's and sniper's aoe now out damages ours. just as ishayel said 9k matk bish vs 14k matk hw and bish dmg still wins cuz the multipliers on hw sucks.
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Post by NightBreeze on Dec 19, 2018 12:02:04 GMT
gladiator now has Volunteer (heard it's a 75% dmg cut to pt) Small correction: the skill which reduces PT dmg is called Hervorhild. Volunteer gives 100% tempest.
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Post by Undyne on Dec 20, 2018 4:21:51 GMT
gladiator now has Volunteer (heard it's a 75% dmg cut to pt) Small correction: the skill which reduces PT dmg is called Hervorhild. Volunteer gives 100% tempest. Thanks xD. I mix the new gladi skills up with each other quite frequently.
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Post by ishayel on Dec 20, 2018 16:55:23 GMT
Bot etc unrelated with our previous meta. JP iruna doesnt have bot and our EN version just follow JP content. For me, that resist ignore boss is sign that you can use high dps class even with their offensive set as long you have tank. I dont think zero is that bad. After sk nerf, our fast kill skill choice become limited. There are only backstab (assassin), zero ray (hw) and doc phantom flame (physical ninja) that good for quick boss farm (bellow 5m hp boss). Among them, only hw that has aoe skills and I could says that their survival rate almost same. Leave other high dps class; magic ninja, enchanter, samurai, and monk. They only effective for high hp boss farm. After the nerf of assault rate, and very low survivability ( none even, all boss skills one shoot us, normal hits 2-3 shoots us ) , zero is too random to be used as burst skill for bosses, the two others are a lot more constant, phantom flame for exemple is sure to make cst dmg after buffing and use, zero dmg varies too much, and we can die even before assault proc ( rate have been lowered from 60% to 40%, with a bonus for first bander used in battle ). Dmg veires too much for price it cost, for me from 300k to 900k, because too much random ( spellburst activate, multiplier too random ). Common that you die trying to get a assault buff, after 5+ bander. Our elemental dmg have been reduced as well, and randomize a lot more. Have tested a lot and have conclude this : blizzard -75% dmg ( before my blizzards going up to 500k, now if i reach 200k i am happy ) meteor -50% dmg ( before 350-400k, now 75-180k) and burn status is a joke now imperial -40% dmg ( before on baum 950k-1.1m, now 600-700k) and this result may be wrong, because even if i have tested for hours with same set, got a lot more matk than before. As rave notice, we have no choice than use zero, that makes new skills useless ( only usable when earthquake on monsters, so useless ). hw is not ranged, with a move randomly from 0 to 12 anywhere around the boss, and a 1 range zero, we take all skills that boss does in this range, with no way to evade with dodge or simply move, our position is unstable, and stoping bander is even more dangerous. A lot of good bosses have aoe around them, and we can't avoid it. For all this reasons, our dps is too random to be reliable. Bored to be moved to boss when he just decide doing his aoe, or die by a hit on the back while getting out of a patch on ground by walking. Those patchs are deadly for us. Too random for his dmg and survivability. even our position is random....
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Post by NightBreeze on Dec 20, 2018 17:15:10 GMT
ishayel the assault rate was not changed. Where are you getting your information from? (the rate is 80% btw, afaik, not 60%) In fact, bandersnatch got a bit of a buff, since it can now proc assault multiple times in a row, whereas before you couldn't proc assault until the current one was done. This makes the eva/dmg nerf a bit less severe. And for the elemental nerf, it's not the magic that was nerfed, it's the weakness of the monsters to it that was increased. Try using spells on mobs that are not weak to them, and the dmg should be the same.
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Post by Aza on Dec 20, 2018 17:28:43 GMT
....... ishayelElemental dmg get a boost.My earthquake raised by around 20k after balance.Do u by any chance using fluency abi? If so remove them.I think multicast reduces a lot of our dmg if we use too many fluency abi.So to utilize it we need lot of dex.But building around multicast is useless,i think. Edited:removing 1 sentence because someone may get triggered by it xD
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Post by ishayel on Dec 20, 2018 18:15:23 GMT
ishayel the assault rate was not changed. Where are getting your information from? (the rate is 80% btw, afaik, not 60%) In fact, bandersnatch got a bit of a buff, since it can now proc assault multiple times in a row, whereas before you couldn't proc assault until the current one was done. This makes the eva/dmg nerf a bit less severe. And for the elemental nerf, it's not the magic that was nerfed, it's the weakness of the monsters to it that was increased. Try using spells on mobs that are not weak to them, and the dmg should be the same. ASSAULT proc have lowered, have tested it a lot, now avg bander required to prov it have up, need average of 3-4 bander to get it. For elemental dmg, i test on monsters weak to the element. Earthquake is only skill that dmg have been raised so far.
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Makina Yuki
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Post by Makina Yuki on Dec 20, 2018 21:19:25 GMT
Kinda disagree with elemental magic damage boost nerf. I use +100% dark magic boost in my enchanter dps set and nothing changed on mob/boss that not weak to dark. On weak to dark enemies, yea, it nerfed.
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Post by ishayel on Dec 23, 2018 14:00:51 GMT
I sm used to test a lot, and i save screenshots too with set i use. For meteor and imperial fire for exemple, with same set, 8 months ago ( 9800 matk) : Average of 970k with imperial, up to 1050k. Average of 320k with meteor, up to 400k.
Now, with same set, 10.5k matk : Average of 650k with imperial, up to 1150k ( very rare ). Average of 150k with meteor, up to 190k.
All counted with spellburst.... Test done on baum warriors.
For earthquake, dmg was up with lower matk, but coefficient was down and more variable. Before, my earthquakes goes up to 260k, now around 150k, with up to 190k. ( On wind monsters ) They have not change max coefficient, but have lowered a lot min coefficient, so max dmg seem not have change a lot for some skills, but min dmg have been lowered a lot, so avg dmg have down. For elenental skills, they only have put all avg dmg the same for all, only random higher for some skills. For zero, before coefficient was x9 to x11 ( zero without assault). Now it's more x6 to x10. They have finally more randomised our dmg ( with the random already present on some skills like bander to get assault, this become totally random ) and removed our defensive buffs. That's not really a nice idea, as you can kill a boss in some seconds or some minutes because you can fail in a row 10+ bander and die before zero, or do the min dmg and fail a lot of bander and die lol.
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Makina Yuki
Community Contributor
Follow & Subscribe My Youtube channel : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCggJhNLV8YxW9gFWMVDAzLw/vid
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Post by Makina Yuki on Dec 23, 2018 17:19:20 GMT
ishayel how about testing meteor at non earth mob? Elemental damage to weaker element enemies are nerfed, so you need non-weak element enemies to confirm whether elemental damage boost got nerfed.
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Post by NightBreeze on Dec 24, 2018 14:12:28 GMT
ishayel the assault rate was not changed. Where are getting your information from? (the rate is 80% btw, afaik, not 60%) In fact, bandersnatch got a bit of a buff, since it can now proc assault multiple times in a row, whereas before you couldn't proc assault until the current one was done. This makes the eva/dmg nerf a bit less severe. And for the elemental nerf, it's not the magic that was nerfed, it's the weakness of the monsters to it that was increased. Try using spells on mobs that are not weak to them, and the dmg should be the same. ASSAULT proc have lowered, have tested it a lot, now avg bander required to prov it have up, need average of 3-4 bander to get it. For elemental dmg, i test on monsters weak to the element. Earthquake is only skill that dmg have been raised so far. Yesterday I farmed a boss with my HW, and 9/10 times assault proc'd with the first bander. So either you forgot to use grigori, you're imagining things or your luck is terrible, because the assault rate did not change in my experience. And of course you'll see lower dmg if you test elemental spells on monsters weak to that element. One of the changes the balance brought is it nerfed the bonus you get when using magic against enemies weak to that element. This is completely normal and was announced by Asobimo. It was nerfed because if they left it like that you'd be hitting like 5m imperial with the new skills, which would've been kind of OP.
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Post by ishayel on Dec 28, 2018 3:47:07 GMT
You get a bonus of 40% FOR FIRST bander, for others it's another story....
For dmg, skill dmg of blizzard, meteor have been down when using them to not weak element.
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