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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Mar 11, 2016 5:24:08 GMT
I've been fooling around with hate gear to try to understand hate values via rage force and provoke. Successfully removed RGN factor via mokie 's suggestion to use toy gloves vs Leedle Colons Lv.17 With no hate+%, i get: Provoke Lv. 4 grants +25 ATK points for Rage Force Rage Force is base ATK capped at 125 (or hate is capped at 125). Also tried to use wolf ear rowell and taunt bangle kaphar with quick cools but the cap remains at 125. Rage Force is affected by ATK% so I adjusted the values accordingly. Rage Force bonus is different depending on weapon, I get around +40dmg with short sword. However, tests with megaroches with same gear lands me with +15dmg with toygloves per provoke Lv.4 =================== Gear used:Blood roar 2x Kaphar, Provoke Lv.3 (+95% hate)Wolf Ears up Rowell, Quick Cool Lv.3 (+50% hate)Taunt Bangle Kaphar, Quick Cool Lv.1 (+55% hate)(no hate in body yet, I'm still contemplating which armor to place my Degizman and provoke Lv.5)Total of +200% hateTest on Leedle Colons, using Provoke Lv.4 at around 1 second delay and obtaining damage values on normal attacks, no buffs.What I observed so far:Each provoke grants around 90dmg (maybe 80 to 100). Still have to test further due to variations in RGN.Reverse calculation suggests that each provoke Lv.4 grants around +30 hate (maybe +35). Need further testing.Damage no longer improves after 3 provokes with +200% hate. This leads me to conclude that hate value is capped at around 250 to 300, based from the max damage I get.Above tests are conducted without a party.I assume that Rage force value is equal to Hate Value.Previous tests on Rage force also suggests that Rage Force ATK bonus is affected by ATK+%. Need to confirm with further testing.If hate is indeed capped, then that would explain why Pallys still can lose hate despite having hate gears (not to be used as an alibi tho'). The hate cap blocks hate growth and allows other partys hate to catch up to the hate cap, until it is relieved (e.g. by dying, hate transfer or by stopping to gain hate).================== We have still yet to determine how players hate growth affects each other in a party. Please feel free to share or correct necessary information to the enlightenment of everybody. Edit: also observed that the bonus damage from rage force gets reduced if you pause for a while after provoke. This confirms that hate deteriorates if you do not attack, similar to the blue hate bar you see in a party. |
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Yazmat
Community Contributor 
Pally Lv351 | Alchy Lv318
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Post by Yazmat on Mar 11, 2016 9:50:55 GMT
I don't think range force bonus is affected by ATK+%, I have seen the same damage raise with my HP gear and my ATK gear when I reach max rage force
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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Mar 11, 2016 15:04:59 GMT
I don't think range force bonus is affected by ATK+%, I have seen the same damage raise with my HP gear and my ATK gear when I reach max rage force Well it is quite a chore to test because it involves gear switching and a lot of retries but I will have it tested to confirm. I do remember getting a bit more damage with my guardian via rage force with my atk set but then again, I wasn't really paying too much attention. We will agree to one point eventually after some tests. The figures on my original post are still preliminary anyway. I realized I needed to remove my provoke ability since the bonuses from these are mere assumptions. I read from somewhere that provoke 4 is +40hate, but I could not recall from where (long time ago, and it didn't really matter much back then). After running a few more tests the figure +40 seems to fit and the hate cap seems to be at 270, assuming that atk% affects rage force. Otherwise I will need to recompute after more tests. |
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asteg
Dank Meme Lord 
yar yar...wind at ye backs me fellows.
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Post by asteg on Mar 11, 2016 23:01:09 GMT
Hate rise is how fast u get hate
Hate growth is how much hate skills generate in my experience
Right now i dont think its that important, ever since famine made that post about how ppl>tank>boss works better then ppl>boss>tank arrgo hasnt been that hard to keep without hate gear
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Post by bikini on Mar 11, 2016 23:18:43 GMT
use servant keep aggro to tanker (excect ninja hate+++) its funny how bw run to my chars when playing with enrage/smooth.
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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Mar 12, 2016 0:44:25 GMT
Hate rise is how fast u get hate Hate growth is how much hate skills generate in my experience Right now i dont think its that important, ever since famine made that post about how ppl>tank>boss works better then ppl>boss>tank arrgo hasnt been that hard to keep without hate gear I don't think hate rise and hate growth are different. I mean if the hate growth value of a skill is 270 (assuming it is the cap) you hit it once and you are already max. It doesn't get any faster than that. I don't believe hate will rise without doing anything. +270 atk from rage force (hate) is not a small thing for your oath damage. It is almost as good as having an extra weapon slot with +10%atk, and to find out that you can achieve it in 2seconds is important to me at least. Especially if we are able to prove that it can be influenced by atk xtals (my theory since rage force grants + fixed attack value). |
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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Mar 12, 2016 0:54:05 GMT
Also understanding hate cap and growth helps assess when to use hate gear and how long hate will hold.
I'm hoping that if I indeed can max hate in 2secs, I maybe able to hold aggro for 10seconds, enough for me to cast oath. And knowing that there is a hate cap, means I don't need to wear hate gear again (will make me feel stupid), after I reach max hate. I can wear mitigation or HP gear and just maintain hate cap with guardian, since I don't need to have high hate values because it will just spill over the cap.
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asteg
Dank Meme Lord
yar yar...wind at ye backs me fellows.
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Post by asteg on Mar 12, 2016 4:43:28 GMT
I just figured u never pt'd so hate wasn't important
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mokie
Community Contributor
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Post by mokie on Mar 12, 2016 6:52:44 GMT
I don't think provoke works like adding 30-35% hate. I think it is like doing a huge damage without causing a real damage. Anyway, I'm not sure about it. I have never used hate gear. Just spamming provoke that enough for me. >.<
BTW, what is your formula? I just want to test some.
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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Mar 12, 2016 7:55:37 GMT
I don't think provoke works like adding 30-35% hate. I think it is like doing a huge damage without causing a real damage. Anyway, I'm not sure about it. I have never used hate gear. Just spamming provoke that enough for me. >.< BTW, what is your formula? I just want to test some. No formula. Just get minimum and maximum of your normal attack to remove the rgn. Then provoke and repeat process to remove rgn. The figures I have is +40 hate for each provoke lvl 4. And the max you can get is 270 hate. This assuming rage force is not capped. |
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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Mar 12, 2016 8:25:05 GMT
I just figured u never pt'd so hate wasn't important Well yes, I do solo grind a lot but sometimes I do get invited to parties so it would be nice to know these stuff and make the party work rather than disband and go back solo just because I didn't know that it can work. During my guardian days I was able to solo and add anybody to a party (leechers, duo, trio, mqers) when I grind. I would like to have similar capability for oath, so I'm trying to find ways to do it. Wouldn't it be great to be able to do oath and tank at the same time? Well that's that and it also pains me every time I say "don't heal" to a bishop in fear of losing aggro during oath. I never thought I would say that to a pallys best friend. |
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Post by MiLiGRiTo on Mar 12, 2016 12:50:29 GMT
I don't think range force bonus is affected by ATK+%, I have seen the same damage raise with my HP gear and my ATK gear when I reach max rage force Ran more tests and added a quick cool. With -5% atk, the bonus dmg did decrease. Then I tested with +25% atk the bonus damage increased. You might want to reconfirm your tests as my tests show that rage force is affected by atk%. |
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Yazmat
Community Contributor
Pally Lv351 | Alchy Lv318
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Post by Yazmat on Mar 12, 2016 13:14:10 GMT
I don't think range force bonus is affected by ATK+%, I have seen the same damage raise with my HP gear and my ATK gear when I reach max rage force Ran more tests and added a quick cool. With -5% atk, the bonus dmg did decrease. Then I tested with +25% atk the bonus damage increased. You might want to reconfirm your tests as my tests show that rage force is affected by atk%. Oh i ll see into it later |
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mokie
Community Contributor
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Post by mokie on Mar 13, 2016 20:10:48 GMT
I don't think provoke works like adding 30-35% hate. I think it is like doing a huge damage without causing a real damage. Anyway, I'm not sure about it. I have never used hate gear. Just spamming provoke that enough for me. >.< BTW, what is your formula? I just want to test some. No formula. Just get minimum and maximum of your normal attack to remove the rgn. Then provoke and repeat process to remove rgn. The figures I have is +40 hate for each provoke lvl 4. And the max you can get is 270 hate. This assuming rage force is not capped. Oh I see. You meant +40 hate, not 30-35% hate rise. My bad on reading. I skimmed through them too fast. |
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mokie
Community Contributor
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Post by mokie on Mar 13, 2016 20:16:19 GMT
BTW, I have a question. Youre wearing +195% hate rise to test provoke on mobs, and get extra about 40 hate units. Does that mean if we use provoke without hate gear, we will get about 13.xx hate units?
(I will call hate unit, just assumption, because we do not know the exact scale of hate.)
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