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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 9:55:37 GMT
1) cane build dont use atk crystas. if you're using fg on dia, use fg for cane too. 2) mdef has nothing at all to do with your damage. you're not a monk to deal more damage to mdef or def. 3) if mdef stops cane magic power, it will stop your magic sword magic power as well. 4) the thing you're referring to is not called MATK/magic attack. its called magical through which again had nothing to do with matk crystas. 5) whatever you slot in your weapon determines the power output. there's no such thing as more slot will make your sword superior unless you slot your sword with isu & leave your cane empty. 6) both dia espada & amulet/witch knife has no magical through nor matk boost. only weapon prefix stat & crysta will determine damage output. enchant weapon mastery: ATK up by INT & MATK rise as cane when using magic weapon. break down the words. "ATK up by INT"= you gain atk boost for sword so cane is not relevant for melee focused ones. "MATK rise as cane when using magic weapon"= you gain matk for magic weapon BUT it never mention cane will never gain matk anymore. conclusion: magic sword=cane. end of story. power output is the same. Pretty much, and the fact that magic amp makes your agi into matk along with your dex and int is what i mean by it gives the edge on matk for a staff.
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Post by ManaKhe on Apr 16, 2014 14:48:16 GMT
I never mentioned ATK xtals. Ever.
I'm not talking about magical through either. I'm talking about the fact that MDEF of mobs is A FLAT DAMAGE DECREASE. Magic amp users do bigger hits, but a lower amount. Lotus seeds/reduce users do smaller hits but they do more of them. The one that does a lot of small hits is more affected by MDEF. This is an obvious concept. Hits=autoskill casts.
As you start getting higher MATK you will not have as big of an impact from MDEF. It's still the same flat damage decrease but that flat damage decrease doesn't happen to be half your damage with more MATK.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 18:31:21 GMT
I never mentioned ATK xtals. Ever. I'm not talking about magical through either. I'm talking about the fact that MDEF of mobs is A FLAT DAMAGE DECREASE. Magic amp users do bigger hits, but a lower amount. Lotus seeds/reduce users do smaller hits but they do more of them. The one that does a lot of small hits is more affected by MDEF. This is an obvious concept. Hits=autoskill casts. As you start getting higher MATK you will not have as big of an impact from MDEF. It's still the same flat damage decrease but that flat damage decrease doesn't happen to be half your damage with more MATK. I think i get it now. But think about this; the damage from every autoskill activation is reduced as well. Lets say 5 weaker magic sword auto skills fired. All 5 are reduced. 5 stronger staff auto skills fired. all 5 are reduced as well. Because of that, theres a very small area for a staff to out work a staff in auto casting. The mdef cant be to low or to high or the staffs autoskills will outshine the magic swords. Which is where a magic sword hurts you and where the variety of staffs help. I could easily use a resty with fg (20% matk boost right there without the spell boost) and crush any higher mdef and overwhelm any low mdef. Not to mention if we get hit and spell boost activates. Same thing for if i used the spell boost xtal. An already strong magic power increased by such a large amount would be impossible for a sword to keep up with. Another thing with the origin skill, further increasing the effectiveness of a staffs already stronger spells. the higher the matk of the spell, the more room for the element boost to increase. Anyways, as more enchanter skills come out that depend on the power of your magic attack, the damage wont even be worth comparing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 22:26:23 GMT
I never mentioned ATK xtals. Ever. I'm not talking about magical through either. I'm talking about the fact that MDEF of mobs is A FLAT DAMAGE DECREASE. Magic amp users do bigger hits, but a lower amount. Lotus seeds/reduce users do smaller hits but they do more of them. The one that does a lot of small hits is more affected by MDEF. This is an obvious concept. Hits=autoskill casts. As you start getting higher MATK you will not have as big of an impact from MDEF. It's still the same flat damage decrease but that flat damage decrease doesn't happen to be half your damage with more MATK. so then you dont get about cane build either right? mention tons of times. there is no such thing as "slow" in using cane because cane build is to have as much agi as possible. not limit it to 133 like sword build. cane build's aspd is completely maxed. stop using sword build to compare with cane. i did mention this a lot earlier why dont you take it to count?
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Post by ManaKhe on Apr 16, 2014 22:42:58 GMT
I never mentioned ATK xtals. Ever. I'm not talking about magical through either. I'm talking about the fact that MDEF of mobs is A FLAT DAMAGE DECREASE. Magic amp users do bigger hits, but a lower amount. Lotus seeds/reduce users do smaller hits but they do more of them. The one that does a lot of small hits is more affected by MDEF. This is an obvious concept. Hits=autoskill casts. As you start getting higher MATK you will not have as big of an impact from MDEF. It's still the same flat damage decrease but that flat damage decrease doesn't happen to be half your damage with more MATK. so then you dont get about cane build either right? mention tons of times. there is no such thing as "slow" in using cane because cane build is to have as much agi as possible. not limit it to 133 like sword build. cane build's aspd is completely maxed. stop using sword build to compare with cane. i did mention this a lot earlier why dont you take it to count?Magic Amp eliminates the use of lotus seeds/reduce bangle. Lotus seeds/reduce bangle will increase the amount of autoskills. So magic amp means less autoskills, more damage each one. Lotus seeds/reduce bangle means more autoskills, less damage each one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 3:09:49 GMT
so then you dont get about cane build either right? mention tons of times. there is no such thing as "slow" in using cane because cane build is to have as much agi as possible. not limit it to 133 like sword build. cane build's aspd is completely maxed. stop using sword build to compare with cane. i did mention this a lot earlier why dont you take it to count?Magic Amp eliminates the use of lotus seeds/reduce bangle. Lotus seeds/reduce bangle will increase the amount of autoskills. So magic amp means less autoskills, more damage each one. Lotus seeds/reduce bangle means more autoskills, less damage each one. amulet have its own autoskill+5% while dia dont. dia espada no autoskill% dpr up=4% autoskill hairband= 5% autoskill lotus seed=5% autoskill draw lv2 buff=10% autoskill total=24% autoskill compared to: amulet+ = 5% autoskill dpr up=4% autoskill hairband = 5% autoskill magic amp no autoskill draw lv2 buff=10% autoskill total=24% autoskill please do the calculation before judging. edited: oh sorry to lengthen the post. if you check back, cane equip even include magic amp which add damage with the same total of autoskill while sword is using total autoskill. cane totally counters the lack of additional mana wave in dia by dealing more damage with the same autoskill rate as sword.
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Post by ManaKhe on Apr 17, 2014 3:32:39 GMT
Magic Amp eliminates the use of lotus seeds/reduce bangle. Lotus seeds/reduce bangle will increase the amount of autoskills. So magic amp means less autoskills, more damage each one. Lotus seeds/reduce bangle means more autoskills, less damage each one. amulet have its own autoskill+5% while dia dont. dia espada no autoskill% dpr up=4% autoskill hairband= 5% autoskill lotus seed=5% autoskill draw lv2 buff=10% autoskill total=24% autoskill compared to: amulet+ = 5% autoskill dpr up=4% autoskill hairband = 5% autoskill magic amp no autoskill draw lv2 buff=10% autoskill total=24% autoskill please do the calculation before judging. edited: oh sorry to lengthen the post. if you check back, cane equip even include magic amp which add damage with the same total of autoskill while sword is using total autoskill. cane totally counters the lack of additional mana wave in dia by dealing more damage with the same autoskill rate as sword. I don't have any idea why you mentioned hairband, Ciel would be far superior in that slot, ESPECIALLY with Amulet+. Anyways... Dia Espada, Ciel, DPR, Lotus Seeds has the same autoskill chance as Amulet+, Ciel, DPR, Magic Amp but it has 3 autoskills instead of 2. Therefore it will do 1.5 times as many autoskills. So you would have to do 1.5 times as much as damage to make up for that. I'm saying you do with about 3 slots, but because of the way magic defense works against us that would not be the case with more MATK xtals. This is not mentioning that Reduce Bangle out damages lotus seeds.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 4:03:48 GMT
amulet have its own autoskill+5% while dia dont. dia espada no autoskill% dpr up=4% autoskill hairband= 5% autoskill lotus seed=5% autoskill draw lv2 buff=10% autoskill total=24% autoskill compared to: amulet+ = 5% autoskill dpr up=4% autoskill hairband = 5% autoskill magic amp no autoskill draw lv2 buff=10% autoskill total=24% autoskill please do the calculation before judging. edited: oh sorry to lengthen the post. if you check back, cane equip even include magic amp which add damage with the same total of autoskill while sword is using total autoskill. cane totally counters the lack of additional mana wave in dia by dealing more damage with the same autoskill rate as sword. I don't have any idea why you mentioned hairband, Ciel would be far superior in that slot, ESPECIALLY with Amulet+. Anyways... Dia Espada, Ciel, DPR, Lotus Seeds has the same autoskill chance as Amulet+, Ciel, DPR, Magic Amp but it has 3 autoskills instead of 2. Therefore it will do 1.5 times as many autoskills. So you would have to do 1.5 times as much as damage to make up for that. I'm saying you do with about 3 slots, but because of the way magic defense works against us that would not be the case with more MATK xtals. This is not mentioning that Reduce Bangle out damages lotus seeds. biased. you never mention dia's weakness. mdef has nothing to do with your damage stop bringing irrelevant thing. if your espada deal 7k to 1k mdef mob, amulet will deal 7k to 1k mdef mob. even if vritra reach the same matk as m.sword, it will deal 7k to 1k mdef mob either. it doesnt matter what you're using as your mastery never mention so. autocast is not autoskill. you're an enchanter you should have known that.
you do 1.5x more autocast while amulet do 1.5x less but how hard do you think it is to reach 50% more dmg? cane build is pure damage while sword build isnt.
sword: int > dex > agi int for matk, dex for matk, agi for aspd.
cane: int > agi > dex int for matk, dex for matk, agi for matk.
these weapon also boost the same amount of matk per int & dex.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 4:04:37 GMT
and im now 99% sure you're confused about mdef & magical through.
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Post by ManaKhe on Apr 17, 2014 5:32:05 GMT
and im now 99% sure you're confused about mdef & magical through. No I think you are confused about whose MDEF I'm talking about. I'm talking about monsters MDEF, not ours. Our MDEF does nothing to our damage, monsters MDEF does. I've said MONSTERS MDEF like 5 times already. I've never said MY MDEF. I have acknowledged that you will do less damage with Dia Espada PER AUTOSKILL than a magic amp user several times. So I have mentioned Dia Espada's weakness. I'm guessing you mean that autocast is what I'm calling an autoskill and that autoskill is what I'm calling autoskill chance. I've never heard of anyone calling something an autocast. Either way its just a different way of saying to same thing. I have no idea why you keep referring to the builds for a sword user and magic amp user. I'm comparing Sword build vs Magic amp build. I know what both builds are. You act like I don't and I've said thats what I'm comparing before. Telling me the stats for magic amp build does not really help your argument at all. How hard is it to do 50% more damage? Well if I were to swap my Dia espada fg with an amulet+fg and my reduce bangle with a magic amp my matk would go from about 1830 to about 2100 I can't give you damage at 2100 attack, but I can give you damage at 2550 MATK. From 1830 MATK to 2550 MATK Mana wave damage goes from 3.8k to about 7k, while enchant weapon goes from about 4.5k to 7k. That's about 70% more damage(I will show you the math for how I got 70% if you would like. So 720 MATK provided about a 70% damage increase. I'm sure its obvious that 270ish extra MATK wouldn't wouldn't provide a 50% damage increase. Of course there is the MDEF thing that I've mentioned and how at lower MATK it makes more of a difference to damage output but it isn't THAT drastic(so you didn't try to use my own argument against me while still not understanding it). Also this is not counting the 10% boost to neutral magic Dia Espada adds, which probably about a 5% increase in damage at my MATK values(6-7% up at higher MATK as mana wave starts to do closer to enchant weapon damage). Also before you ask how I only get about 270 MATK from switching to Amulet+FG and Magic Amp(when max AGI with magic amp increases MATK by about 280), let me explain. Dia Espada has about 40 more ATK than Amulet+. Now with +8-9 this is more like a 60-80 ATK difference. This gets turned MATK of course, thats why its relevant. So after you add that 280 MATK from Magic Amp, you have to subtract that 60-80 MATK from the difference between the weapons. So its about 200 more MATK before crystals and about 270 after.
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Post by ManaKhe on Apr 17, 2014 5:58:15 GMT
I never mentioned ATK xtals. Ever. I'm not talking about magical through either. I'm talking about the fact that MDEF of mobs is A FLAT DAMAGE DECREASE. Magic amp users do bigger hits, but a lower amount. Lotus seeds/reduce users do smaller hits but they do more of them. The one that does a lot of small hits is more affected by MDEF. This is an obvious concept. Hits=autoskill casts. As you start getting higher MATK you will not have as big of an impact from MDEF. It's still the same flat damage decrease but that flat damage decrease doesn't happen to be half your damage with more MATK. I think i get it now. But think about this; the damage from every autoskill activation is reduced as well. Lets say 5 weaker magic sword auto skills fired. All 5 are reduced. 5 stronger staff auto skills fired. all 5 are reduced as well. Because of that, theres a very small area for a staff to out work a staff in auto casting. The mdef cant be to low or to high or the staffs autoskills will outshine the magic swords. Which is where a magic sword hurts you and where the variety of staffs help. I could easily use a resty with fg (20% matk boost right there without the spell boost) and crush any higher mdef and overwhelm any low mdef. Not to mention if we get hit and spell boost activates. Same thing for if i used the spell boost xtal. An already strong magic power increased by such a large amount would be impossible for a sword to keep up with. Another thing with the origin skill, further increasing the effectiveness of a staffs already stronger spells. the higher the matk of the spell, the more room for the element boost to increase. Anyways, as more enchanter skills come out that depend on the power of your magic attack, the damage wont even be worth comparing. Yes you are right about how the MDEF has to be in a certain range for swords to do better, but most mobs fall into that range except for certain bosses and enemies where the damage difference won't matter as you will one hit kill them anyways. Theres also earth pike in those situations to lessen the difference but staff will probably do more damage to barriers such as Mezzaluna's or Azimov's. Origin will increase both of our damage outputs roughly the same, you will get a slightly bigger boost to yours. Origin is a rather low damage boost though, its a 25% boost to one part of your damage and has a 1/4 chance of doing anything. So its about a 6% boost to enchant weapon damage overall, earth origin would have a bigger boost to enchant weapons damage(earth pikes the strongest), wind origin would have a smaller one(TBolt is the weakest). I'm fairly certain Enchanters will stay auto attackers for the most part, in which the same arguments will apply. Also there are very good magic swords in the future, which I'm sure there will be good staves too but just from looking at JP Wiki it doesn't look like many are catered towards Enchanter. The difference between them will be about the same as it is now, if not leaning in the direction of Magic Sword over Staff. Actually theres a magic sword that has a chance to increase ATK and MATK when attacking while also having an autoskill and +6% MATK.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 6:16:46 GMT
and im now 99% sure you're confused about mdef & magical through. No I think you are confused about whose MDEF I'm talking about. I'm talking about monsters MDEF, not ours. Our MDEF does nothing to our damage, monsters MDEF does. I've said MONSTERS MDEF like 5 times already. I've never said MY MDEF. I have acknowledged that you will do less damage with Dia Espada PER AUTOSKILL than a magic amp user several times. So I have mentioned Dia Espada's weakness. I'm guessing you mean that autocast is what I'm calling an autoskill and that autoskill is what I'm calling autoskill chance. I've never heard of anyone calling something an autocast. Either way its just a different way of saying to same thing. I have no idea why you keep referring to the builds for a sword user and magic amp user. I'm comparing Sword build vs Magic amp build. I know what both builds are. You act like I don't and I've said thats what I'm comparing before. Telling me the stats for magic amp build does not really help your argument at all. How hard is it to do 50% more damage? Well if I were to swap my Dia espada fg with an amulet+fg and my reduce bangle with a magic amp my matk would go from about 1830 to about 2100 I can't give you damage at 2100 attack, but I can give you damage at 2550 MATK. From 1830 MATK to 2550 MATK Mana wave damage goes from 3.8k to about 7k, while enchant weapon goes from about 4.5k to 7k. That's about 70% more damage(I will show you the math for how I got 70% if you would like. So 720 MATK provided about a 70% damage increase. I'm sure its obvious that 270ish extra MATK wouldn't wouldn't provide a 50% damage increase. Of course there is the MDEF thing that I've mentioned and how at lower MATK it makes more of a difference to damage output but it isn't THAT drastic(so you didn't try to use my own argument against me while still not understanding it). Also this is not counting the 10% boost to neutral magic Dia Espada adds, which probably about a 5% increase in damage at my MATK values(6-7% up at higher MATK as mana wave starts to do closer to enchant weapon damage). Also before you ask how I only get about 270 MATK from switching to Amulet+FG and Magic Amp(when max AGI with magic amp increases MATK by about 280), let me explain. Dia Espada has about 40 more ATK than Amulet+. Now with +8-9 this is more like a 60-80 ATK difference. This gets turned MATK of course, thats why its relevant. So after you add that 280 MATK from Magic Amp, you have to subtract that 60-80 MATK from the difference between the weapons. So its about 200 more MATK before crystals and about 270 after. im done. this confusion about mdef will never stop. if cane with same matk reduce damage for you then it's either not working for you or i'm granted with super powers to deal the same.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 5:48:36 GMT
sorry but i reject ALL of your point for paper reason again. don't give me paper. give me real world test. amulet has nothing? well say that to a year old weapon which deals more enchant rate bonus that your spargas weapon. amulet has another upgrade coming so stop seeing its 1 year old side.
to be honest, since i was lv130+ nobody talks about enchanter and nobody even know what it does, what weapon it use. once moko video is out, dia espada surpass everything even god. all i see now is complete biased over weapon which nobody know before. now everyone play bossy. dia espada is everything then ashley vid becomes popular and people worship fuma shuriken. i'v been here longer than wizaleon and i see how the trend goes. now the claw video goes popular and almost everyone's dream weapon is ifrit claw. don't you see that fact yet? wake up.
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Post by ManaKhe on Apr 19, 2014 5:49:35 GMT
Youre all actually arguing on four seperate points. 1) a max int aspd 120+ max dex enchanter and with current cap of lvl 220 and with new star ability using a dia espada will out damage a cane user on both whote and autoskill damage (bear with me on this i will explain why below) 2) you argue mdef with origin boost vs stacking matk to penetrate. This resolves to a dia espada user selightly edging an amulet or cane user out. (See again below) 3) you argue proc from gear vs base proc. This doesn't work. Again i will explain below. 4) you argue dia espadas 10% neutral bonus to mana wave which affects ciel dmg vs resty rods spell boost proc. Again. Its applying to what i will say following this, which is why so many enchanters say witch knife while looking good, absolutely sucks, and i would actually say if you want to go throwing, flabellum 2 is better. The reasoning why your cane setup looks so awesome on paper is because magic users get a tiny bonus using a staff to matk vs not using a staff A magic sword user gets 2 atk and 1.5 atk per dex and a further 1.5 atk and matak from using a magic swordvbAdd em. If we take this at hase value. I am getting 2x 256 white damage from dia espada. This applies to its 10% neutral boost from its inherient mana wave. Next i get for every point i add to dex 1.5 from using a magic sword plus 1.5 for the fact that dex adds an inherient 1.5 matk. This translates to 3 more matk, actually it sits around 4.5 due to % buff and debuff. The effect doesnt matter. The only reason resty and dragon are matching and if by a very very small margain and we are talking kkda up vs fclaw up kinda margain. Where it wouldnt freaking matter is the weapon @atk value. And this will be surpassed when dia maxes out on its next upgrade. Trying to compare dia vs resty dia vs amulet dia vs dragon is absolutely pointless. Using dia you will proc a higher dmg mana wave which leaves us still bursty. Using a resty you will proc your skills less often and for a bit more damage. Using an amulet+ you wont even match that. We dont care about white damage. And the amount of points you have to spend to max your aspd uskng a staff will only ever on par you if youre extremly lucky with autoskill vs what a dia or a flab+2 can offer at the sacrafice of Survivability. And no. Any enchanter worth their salt doesn't spam ss to tank. Noobs do that. Its an ohshi button. Not a staple Stop theorizing tilt and do it in game. An app emchant is about as useful as an app monk. They dont compare to full classes. Get one and you will see. Editing some spelling mistakes and clarifying: Cane (3 atk str 1atk int. Magic users geta small boost) a can is classified as a staff. Magic sword (2 atk per int (offsets cane bonus to dmg since thats what we are talking about) 1.5 per dex. Do some math now. Every point of dex we add gives 1.5 matk. Using a magic sword we get a further 1.5. Thats 3 no? 1.5 +1.5 is 3 unless my math is wrong. You are only out damaging because you are outgearing. Its like a new sniper not using a thimble vs one using one. WE DONT CARE ABOUT WHITE HITS. Thats a bonus. Nkthing more. And a if u arnt proccing an auto skill, and you will proc less times and for less overall damage against a long boss, say earth god. You are gimping yourself on a real fight. 30 secboss fights dont count That 2 ATK per INT and DEX is only ATK. It isn't MATK. However, Enchanters turn the ATK of magic weapons(Magic Sword, Magic Bow) into MATK, they also get a small boost based off INT when using a magic weapon. I'm not entirely certain if Cane, Magic Wand, and Throwing are included in this passive since they already boost MATK based off the weapons ATK. There is no passive on Enchanter that is specific to Cane. That is only on High Wizards. No bonus at all over magic weapons. Tilt has already had a 140+ Enchanter . I'm gonna update the guide more about this soon but Enchanters do keep Stoneskin up most of the time when tanking. You just don't want to die if you take a hit while its off mosly, some bosses that would probably be impossible on though... Also they are just plain great at tanking a lot of bosses(better than Paladin at some actually, EX:Ziddu) but on some its just unnecessarily difficult unless you are a paladin or something.
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Post by ManaKhe on Apr 19, 2014 6:09:07 GMT
sorry but i reject ALL of your point for paper reason again. don't give me paper. give me real world test. amulet has nothing? well say that to a year old weapon which deals more enchant rate bonus that your spargas weapon. amulet has another upgrade coming so stop seeing its 1 year old side. to be honest, since i was lv130+ nobody talks about enchanter and nobody even know what it does, what weapon it use. once moko video is out, dia espada surpass everything even god. all i see now is complete biased over weapon which nobody know before. now everyone play bossy. dia espada is everything then ashley vid becomes popular and people worship fuma shuriken. i'v been here longer than wizaleon and i see how the trend goes. now the claw video goes popular and almost everyone's dream weapon is ifrit claw. don't you see that fact yet? wake up. There are Enchanters that use Fuma? I thought Flabellum was the clear winner for throwing Enchanter lol, Fuma 2nd, well theres Artemis now too. While I do agree that there is a lack of variety and there's some bandwagoning going on, there is usually a good reason for it. Although Fuma is just weird lol. Thats like using S Rod lol. A lot of Enchanters seem to do off the wall stuff with their gear too. Not talking about cane users with this btw lol.
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